Ancient Roman Pronatalism: The Last Time We Failed to Solve Fertility Collapse

In this episode, we delve into the ancient Roman fertility crisis, focusing on the efforts of Augustus to encourage marriage and childbearing among the Roman elite. We discuss various laws introduced by Augustus, such as the Lex Julia and Lex Papia Poppaea, aimed at promoting procreation and the penalties imposed on the unmarried and childless. We explore the historical context, examining the low fertility rates of notable Roman families and the societal implications. Furthermore, we draw parallels to modern issues of declining fertility rates, particularly in Italy, and the potential cultural and economic impacts. Join us as we uncover the motivations behind Augustus' policies and the ultimate challenges they faced in ensuring the survival of Rome's elite lineage.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. Today we are going to be talking about ancient Roman tism.

Simone Collins: Oh, the failed kind,

Malcolm Collins: right? Many people have heard. Of Rome as As, and they've, they've heard of, like Augustus say, being concerned about falling fertility rates among Roman elites. Mm-hmm. We've heard that he put in laws to try to prevent this.

Mm-hmm. We've heard, oh, this is mirrored with our current societal collapse and this is a pretense of the destruction of a global empire in the same way.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: People thought as a pretense of the destruction of the Roman empire. Right. Even though it wasn't, that happened a long time after this particular concern.

But I mean it kind of was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We'll see. But I was like, wait. What were those laws, what actually happened in Rome during this period? Mm-hmm. What did people of the period have to say about this? Mm-hmm. How low did the fertility rate of the Roman elite actually get? Hmm. And I'll also start by saying Rome's going through this again.

Italy right now has the fertility rate of only 1.18. That means every hundred Italians, there's only gonna be 20 great grandchildren. We are looking at the complete collapse of, italian civilization likely was in our [00:01:00] lifetimes, which is gonna be good point.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Hadn't thought. Yeah. We're sort of, we're back, we're back to square one.

Malcolm Collins: And this, this also causes a lot of problems like for Catholicism because if, if Italy is no longer Italian or Catholic anymore, you know what happens to the Vatican? Tough, tough world we might be entering. But I, I, I think they're gonna get it together. I think they're gonna get it together. I have faith so we'll start here talking about Augustus.

Okay. So Augustus uses platform to urge Romans to marry and have children framing it as a civic duty in a famous speech recorded by historian DiUS, he said. If we could survive without a wife, citizens of Rome, all of us would do without that nuisance. Oh wow. But since the nature has so decreed that we cannot manage comfortably with them nor live in any way without them.

Yeah. We must plan for our lasting preservation. That's rather than, rather for our temporary pleasure. That's amazing. Okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: that is. I, we, we needed to have Augustus at Alcon, so all the journalists could be quoting [00:02:00] Augusta. Oh yeah.

Simone Collins: He would be the clickbait. He would be the, the, yeah, the soundbite generator for natal con, the soundbite

Malcolm Collins: generator for, for modern journalists.

Simone Collins: Wives, they're awful. But I mean, you gotta, you gotta put up with it. You gotta put up with it. It's like colonoscopies and wives

Malcolm Collins: necessary.

Not exactly a view. I, I'm not gonna say like that, that's a view I would've given to Romans, like, sat them down and been like, okay, it's gonna be terrible. It's gonna be the worst thing ever.

Simone Collins: Ugh. And women, I at least Trump, you know, is more like, man, you're so lucky. Yeah. Gods was really not selling it like at all. Like, you gotta do it. It sucks, but, but it's your duty. Yeah. No wonder this is doomed from the very start for the, my goodness.

Malcolm Collins: You don't set it for the queen,

Simone Collins: you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

Lie back and think of England or Rome in this case.

Malcolm Collins: So this quote reflects his view that marriage, though challenging was essential for Rome survival. Mm-hmm. He also praised fathers of large families and criticized the childless, emphasizing the importance of producing heirs to maintain Rome's strengths.

Mm-hmm. On the [00:03:00] duty of recreation, he said you have shown yourself to be mindful of the continued existence of our race while these others have not Dio, Cassius book 56 spoken to married men with children. This quote praises them for fulfilling their civic duty while implicitly criticizing unmarried and childless for neglecting it.

This is so much worse than JD Vans. You have shown yourself to be mindful to the continued existence of our race. Well, the others have not. Childless cat

Simone Collins: is a lot more catchy.

Malcolm Collins: I just, I just need to just have quotes from him like in my back pocket to freak people out. You've been mindful about the preservation of our race.

I really appreciate that. And, you know, some others have not. Gosh,

August. He really,

Simone Collins: really, I mean, he was a very smart, successful man on many fronts. This is making me doubt his competence. Maybe this was late stage Augustus, you know, like, yeah. Ugh,

Malcolm Collins: Augustus on Childlessness. Oh boy. According to dio, [00:04:00] Cassius Augustus criticized Romans for failing to reproduce even when it was easier for them in earlier times.

Quote. Mm-hmm. How wrathful would the Romans who were Romulus followers be after they had gotten children even by their enemies wives. You will not beget them. Even of women who are citizens. Oh, oh my. This guy, goodness.

Simone Collins: This guy, the way he about women, he's like, baby, get children by grape. You won't

Malcolm Collins: even do it with your own wife.

Like what a like on the pedestal. Griping your enemy's wives where he is down here?

Simone Collins: Not very you know, I, I'm seeing the problem here. He, he had just two kids. He himself was a reproductive failure.

Malcolm Collins: Surviv kids. Yeah. Five kids.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But I get it.

Malcolm Collins: But yeah, he was below repopulation rate. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So yeah, I know he bad guy.

I keep in mind a lot of people get the strong about repopulation, right? They think that 2.1 is about [00:05:00] people dying at different rates. It's not, it's about differences in sex when people are born you know, you get more males than females born. And so, that's, that's why. Nothing else. So it, it doesn't account for that.

So if he had his other kids die, he really was below repopulation rate in terms of his own fertility. Which I think shows, you know, even if the emperor can't, can't make it happen.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Well, I mean, he wasn't a believer, he was not himself a believer. Trump a lot of kids. JD Vance, three kids like,

Malcolm Collins: well, if I was his wife, I woul