Its Islamophobic to Ban Child Marriage! (Says Muslim High Court)

In this episode, Simone and the host discuss Pakistan's recent ban on child marriages with the 2025 Islamabad Capital Territory Child Marriage Restraint Bill, which sets the legal age for marriage at 18. They explore the controversy surrounding the ban, particularly the pushback from Pakistan's Council of Islamic Ideology (CII), which labeled the bill 'un-Islamic.' The discussion delves into cultural, religious, and historical perspectives on child marriage in conservative Islamic societies. They also examine disturbing local practices such as exchanging young girls to settle feuds. The hosts analyze the religious texts and traditions that support child marriage and scrutinize the arguments from both sides. Additionally, they address broader cultural implications and ethical considerations, highlighting the need for nuanced understanding and the dangers of cultural imperialism.

Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. Today we are gonna have a spicy conversation. Pakistan did the unsinkable, or rather, something that should be non-controversial, which is banning child marriages. Oh. The country's primary like religious authority called the council of Islamic Theology.

Simone Collins: I'm picturing like a rounded table with a big globe icon.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, no. What, what really happened was this,

Speaker: This is all wrong. How dare you? You have stolen my dreams People are suffering.

Malcolm Collins: And Greta Thornberg, of course, famous anti-Semite would go along and great with these people. But they basically came back and they said, this is Islamophobic. Is, is the term that has been used? It is, it is against the principles of Islam.

Wait. Hmm. Does Islam actually condone. Well, yeah, so I was like, I know there's the whole, like if you're on the internet and you're around like the, the anti-Islamic circles, uhhuh, like, oh, well he did, you know, get engaged to a girl when she was six and consummate the marriage when she was nine. This is Aisha.

No. And I had, and I had heard this and, and then I'd heard Muslims say, oh no, that's not true. Like look at the actual whatever. And so I just assumed. Angry internet, A CS being nerds, right? Like I was like, yeah, right. Like, come on, that's not real. Or I'm sure that there's like a nuance if you really dig into it, then

Simone Collins: well, maybe it's one of those things where like people just kind of forget their ages, so then you ask them how old they are and they're like, I don't know, nine.

Malcolm Collins: Well, so we are going to get into the evidence for both sides of this. Okay? But what I will say, what I didn't know is that in the conservative Muslim world, like if you're not in the West, almost everyone believes the nine age. Th this Islamic council almost certainly would believe the nine age, almost every major conservative Islamic council council, or I'd say every major conservative Islamic council particularly the SUNY ones, would go with the nine age.

So does

Simone Collins: this mean that in turn. It is considered normative or possibly even recommended that girls as young as nine get married.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Puberty is seen as the age. No

Simone Collins: puberty's getting earlier and earlier these days. So that's, I guess, nine territory. Let's,

Malcolm Collins: let's go into the data here. 'cause there's a lot to go over with this case and I think it's really, really interesting.

We're also gonna go into some unique practices in Pakistan. Ooh. Where they, trade young girls to end blood feuds with other families. So they will take you know, like their 9-year-old daughter or whatever, and basically give them to another family for marriage for, for one of their life. A family

Simone Collins: with which they have a blood feud.

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins: So, you know, this kind of reminds me of you know how Alexander the Great was raised in a. In an antagonistic court, right? As like, yeah. I don't, I don't

Malcolm Collins: think that that I, I, I assume that in a lot of these cases they're pretty severely abused, but we will get into this. Oh yeah. Actually, I've

Simone Collins: listened to some very, very long interviews with women who've been in situations like these, so I'm not super ready for this.

But let's go.

Malcolm Collins: We won't get into too many horrifics specifics. Just generalities and things that have been caught by the public and stuff by that. Okay, so in May, 2025, Pakistan's National Assembly and Senate passed the Islamabad Capital Territory Child Marriage restraint Bill, a landmark legislation aimed at curbing child marriages by setting the minimum legal age for marriage to 18 for both males and females.

In Islamabad, the bill criminalized cohabitation with minors as statutory grape with penalties of up to seven years in prison and fines of at least 1 million Pakistani rues or around. 2,600 pounds. However, the Council of Islamic Ideology, CIIA Constitutional body, so again, this isn't like some weirdo council, this is part of the cons constitutional body that advises the Pakistani government on the compatibility of its laws 'cause Islamic principles declared the bill quote unquote un-Islamic on May 27th, 2025.

The CII argued that provisions defining marriage under 18 as child abuse. Describing punishments were not was in Islamic jurisdictions. They also noted that the bill was not sent to them for review before its passage. I find that very interesting that they assumed that it would have been. And apparently they had killed similar bills multiple times in the past.

Wow. So they big mad about this. They argue you check with

Simone Collins: them the nerve.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They argue that Islamic law does not set a specific minimum age for marriage with some clerics suggesting that puberty, which can occur as early as nine. And was obviously the prophet as precedent, you know, literally nine is considered okay for them is sufficient for marriage eligibility.

And I did ask ai, and AI said that your, your average Pakistani by far would believe that Aisha was nine. It's just sort of the, the western ones who would think something different are the ones who are involved in like online arguing with atheists. Historical context. This is not the first time the CII has opposed child marriage bans in 2014 and 2016, similar bills were deemed quote unquote un-Islamic and quote unquote blasphemous blasphemous mind you, not just Islamophobic leading to their withdraw.

The CII has also made controversial rulings, such as suggesting de i evidence is inadmissible in grape cases. Why do you just want grape to happen? Like.

Simone Collins: That I just don't think it's really seen as such. I mean, I just, in, in a lot of these, I mean Okay, and I'm pulling from interviews from Pakistani women who on YouTube have done like long form interviews of their experience growing up as child brides, essentially like in houses of their in-laws.

They're not really. They're not, they're treated this, ah, they're treated like the level of worse than, than your average American would treat a pet dog. Yeah, that's what I've heard in terms of like, and so like this idea that like, you could, because I think even most people and we've, you know, bring it back sexual relationship with, with with a dog like I think most people we're not

Malcolm Collins: pro that.

She's joking. We're not pro

Simone Collins: th