Pronatalist Debate: Culture vs. Housing with @MoreBirths

In this episode, the discussion revolves around fertility rates, demographic collapse, and fertility policy featuring Dan from More Births, a renowned figure in public communication on these issues. Topics include the significance of cultural attitudes over housing space in influencing fertility, the concept of a 'fertility stack'—various factors impacting fertility rates—and related statistics. The conversation also touches on the importance of a pronatalist culture, early marriage, religiosity, and the support of extended family, as well as the negative impact of high C-section rates. Join our hosts and Dan as they delve into these complex issues, debate their viewpoints, and discuss solutions for encouraging higher fertility rates.

Simone Collins: [00:00:00] Hi everyone. We've got Dan has here.

He is more births on X. He is a legend in communicating with the public on fertility and demographic collapse and fertility policy. And we are thrilled. And we just saw him in person a couple of weeks ago. Now he's here with us. On the podcast. And he's going to talk about his top theories, his thoughts on priorities.

Because I'm going to explain why they're wrong. Okay. And Malcolm's going to be, and we're going to see our own little base camp flame war here, marshmallows over the fire of disagreement. It's all good.

Malcolm Collins: Also he's in a fertility collapse task force. We're putting together with the heritage foundation, which I'm also really excited about right now.

So we've got right now, you guys, the heritage foundation guys, and Catherine.

More Births: Puckaloo. Yes.

Malcolm Collins: But. The argument we were getting into because you you were destroying it all you're saying you actually agree with me and I don't like this because But I was saying that because there were two core concepts You we wanted to go over with a lot of statistics in this episode One [00:01:00] is the importance of living space to fertility rates Which is something that you're known for frequently arguing and then the second is the concept of a fertility stack which is a collection of things that impact fertility rates And I was saying that I actually disagree even with the lesser fertility stack issue, because I think it draws away for the overwhelming importance of culture.

And I think that if we don't look at this as a culture first problem, it causes groups that could otherwise be saved to be able to. Push off their, their real problems to like secondary quality of life issues that they want to micro focus on. And I think giving them an excuse to do that is incredibly damaging to the wider conversation.

So I want to hear your debate here. And stats on why this stuff is so important.

More Births: Okay. Well, I, I'm, I'm, I have bad news. I, I actually do agree with you. There's a big problem here. I don't know. We, we want to, we want to be a [00:02:00] flame war here, but actually no, you, you are right. I mean, the, the most important driver of fertility above everything else is culture.

Yeah, absolutely. And. And so I do agree this this concept of the fertility stack. So I I can I can talk about what the major first

Malcolm Collins: first let's do the major things in the fertility stack then try to convince me that housing space matters at all Because I, I just say, and I, and I'll repeatedly say this is, is if you look historically in America, it was common for multiple families to live in one household.

Like that, that means that the only reason we care about living space before having kids is completely cultural. It's, it's like being trans or something. Like, I don't understand how I can say that one, if I'm like, this is inefficient and doesn't help people. So we should change our culture rather than change, you know, our biology.

When I look at houses, I'm like, well, we should change our culture rather than changing our environments because there's nuance

Simone Collins: to this. And I want to hear Dan's [00:03:00] argument and I can also throw in some things that some people have shared with me that have moderated my views on this.

More Births: Okay. Yes. Would you, do you want to talk about housing first or the, yeah, let's talk about housing first.

I guess the

Malcolm Collins: easier one for you to argue. Cause it's such a, your core thing.

More Births: Yeah. Yeah. So, Pro NATO belief and having a culture that's pro family is definitely very important. But, but, you know, housing, having the right kind of housing and housing space does matter also. And I just want to use the example of a group that is all around you guys, where you are in Pennsylvania, which is, which is the Amish.

So, so we have, you know, the, Example of Israel, which is a wonderful example of, of pro natal culture

Malcolm Collins: and very dense housing. That's gotten denser recently.

More Births: Right. No, very dense housing. That is there. That is actually, I would say their biggest limitation. But I would say, you know, the Amish have many of many similar values, you know, pro natal belief very religious, tight knit culture.

And they also have You know a lot of space and [00:04:00] a lot of room to grow and you get a fertility rate of of six

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but the core thing that correlates with fertility in American what is it dutch whatever speakers basically amish in america is the use of cell phones which is I mean, it's so overwhelming it cuts their fertility rate by into like a third of what it is when they don't use Cell phones which shows that that cultural intrusion matters more to them than the land ownership itself You And I also point out that if you're contrasting Amish culture with Jewish culture in the way it relates to land ownership, you can immediately see how Jewish culture negates the housing issue specifically with, with Amish individuals, it's believed you need your own house to get married and they'll even do like barn raises and like, you know, you make money off the land and everything like that.

If you go to Israel, if you go, and we've argued this in other videos, that Judaism is an urban specialized culture, I think today, 98 percent of Jews live in urban areas. If you go to rural parts of Israel and you look at the way they structure their, their cities, they look like micro dense [00:05:00] settlements instead of like actually like spread apart cities typically based around like a minion.

And it's, and I'll, I'll put pictures on screen of it cause it's really weird. But it shows that even if you give Jews a lot of land, because their culture is so adapted, For less space, they use the land in a way where they're not like taking it up with giant houses and everything. So, I don't want to say that you're I do hear

More Births: it.

I do hear it. No, I really do. I do want to 1 thing. I do want to emphasize this is and this is the core of the topic of I say the fertility stack is that there. It is multifactored and I would agree with you that pronatal belief and culture are the most important element and I have that, you know, as the top of the I also want to point out there is, you know, quite a, you know, quite a significant housing restraint, particularly when you can't have, [00:06:00] you know, all of you know, all of cultures you know, being as pronatal as, as you can.

As Israel. So I want to, I want to, you know, present some stats, show us some stats. Sure, sure.

Simone Collins: Well, and while Dan pulls up some stats I will point out that one thing that really changed the way I look at this is a mother th