Show full transcript 0:53 Call 1-800-GRANGER, click Granger.com or just stop by. 0:57 Granger for the ones who get it done. 1:06 Hello everybody, I'm Keith Morrison and this is Talking Dateline. 1:10 Today I'm joined by Josh Makowitz to discuss his episode, 1:15 which is called Heartless. Interesting title for this one. 1:19 It's about the disappearance of a woman in rural Oklahoma, 1:22 the armchair detectives that brought attention to her case, 1:25 and the killer who is too close to home. 1:29 But before we get into all of that, 1:31 if you haven't listened to the episode yet, 1:32 you can find it right below this one 1:34 or stream it right now on Peacock. 1:36 And then come back and we'll talk. 1:39 We'll have more from Josh's interview with Talena's killer 1:43 and later your questions from social media. 1:45 All right, let's talk data line. 1:48 So this was an interesting way to get into a story, 1:51 Josh Maikiewicz, you got it through our digital team. 1:54 when you were doing the Missing in America? 1:57 Yes, I got a call several years ago 2:02 when Talina was missing before she'd been found 2:05 by a friend of mine who knew Talina I think through work. 2:10 And she said, this woman I know is suddenly missing 2:12 and nobody can find her and maybe this is something 2:18 that you guys could work on. 2:20 So I sent it to Veronica, 2:22 who's in our DateLine episode, who runs the Missing in America franchise for us. 2:30 And so we did one of the first stories on that case. 2:34 We were sort of one of the first places where that, where Talina's case got some national 2:39 play. 2:40 Now, I'd be the first to admit, I don't think that our Missing in America thing did 2:48 anything except generate a lot of tips. 2:50 I do not think it played any role in solving the case, but it did sort of begin to get the case out there and 2:58 Was that what prompted all of the the armchair detectives on social media to get involved? 3:03 Well, it's impossible to say sort of what prompts 3:06 I mean what got everybody interested in the Karen Reed case what got everybody interested in the Lindsay Clancy case 3:14 There's a sort of a 3:15 a spot or a sort of a match strikes on the internet and suddenly there's this wildfire 3:22 of interest. 3:23 And there was some of that in the case of Talina Galloway. 3:29 You know, people who had never heard her name before, didn't know who she was, had never 3:35 been to Oklahoma, suddenly were super invested in finding out where she was. 3:41 And we sort of talked to one of the leaders of that group, Jess. 3:44 Yes. 3:45 Yeah. 3:46 Well, it's very interesting about these kinds of groups that form sometimes spontaneously, 3:51 sometimes intentionally. 3:53 The police occasionally like to work with them. 3:56 These police officers didn't seem necessarily all that enthusiastic. 4:00 They were sort of ahead of them most of the time, I think. 4:03 It's hard to say. 4:05 I mean, obviously, I wasn't privy to every conversation or any of the conversations 4:08 between the sort of the amateur sleuths and the 4:11 and the sheriff's investigators who were working this case. 4:14 Those investigators, the sheriff's department, they 4:17 they solved it. They got to the bottom of it. 4:21 And you know, were they helped along at some point by 4:25 by the amateur sleuths? Maybe. 4:28 But this is certainly mostly almost almost all 4:32 their work. You know, the problem, as they say 4:36 in this episode is that when you get all these tips from elsewhere, generated by people on 4:42 the Internet who unquestionably sort of, you know, mean well, and in some cases come up 4:47 with legitimate, interesting, worthy to explore avenues of investigation, that can slow things 4:54 down, particularly if as an investigator you already think you know what's going on. 4:58 but those tips can't be discounted. I mean, our Missing in America story generated a tip that 5:06 Talina had been seen here in the distant suburbs of Los Angeles. Well, not true, but they have to 5:14 check it out. I think investigators feel like that kind of thing slows them down, 5:19 but there's no question that sometimes it leads to something. 5:23 I think it definitely slows them down in many cases. 5:28 I've only encountered one, which was a case where the person wasn't missing. 5:32 She was already dead, and they were trying to figure out who she was. 5:36 It was a Jane Doe case, and in that case, the detectives actively sought out and were 5:43 happy to accept the help of this online group of sleuths, and it made a big difference. 5:48 But again, if somebody is missing, they're trying to solve a murder. 5:51 It's a different situation. 5:52 Well, the one I always come back to is the Kristen Smart case in which, you know, Chris 5:57 Lambert, who was a, you know, podcaster, not an investigator, didn't know the smart family, 6:03 never investigated, you know, crimes or anything like that, sort of took it upon himself to 6:10 begin investigating this and then generated a tremendous amount of information that kind 6:14 of helped kickstart the case. 6:16 And there's other cases around the country where sort of amateur sleuths or podcasters, 6:20 you know, made a big deal. 6:21 And there's also cases in which Amherst is loose and, you know, sort of gotten away. 6:27 Generally, law enforcement happy to have tips. I think there's a point at which they sort of feel 6:34 like, you know, hey, enough, stay in your lane. It's also a change from the way it was, you know, 6:40 when, when I started, certainly it was just about seven eons ago. But where the officers 6:48 did not want anybody interfering and they didn't want anybody even talking to them about it. 6:52 They're doing their own investigation and stay out of it, please. 6:55 Cops were working with oil lamps, weren't they, when you started? 6:58 I think that's about right. Driving around in their horseless carriages. 7:04 I don't think people, I don't think people trying to solve crimes at home, 7:08 whether they're disappearances or murders. I don't think that's going away. 7:12 I think the internet makes that much more possible than it was just a few years ago and 7:19 It makes it inevitable and it can create a community of sort of like-minded people who want to get to the bottom 7:25 Oh, which is exactly what happened in this case and just did a tremendous amount of work and you know, I mean 7:31 at one point 7:35 investigators told her 7:37 To sort of slow down 7:39 because Cory, their suspect, was reading the Where's Talina Justice for Talina 7:45 webpage and thinking I'm under suspicion, which from those people she 7:51 absolutely was. I think the cops wanted her to feel like no, no, you're not under 7:56 suspicion, you're, you're, it's still safe to talk with us. And so they sort of 8:03 asked Jessica, like can you, can you just hold down a little bit? And the 8:07 Cops really clearly wanted to keep Corey talking because every time they spoke with her, they 8:12 were, the Sheriff's Investigators were learning a little bit more. 8:16 Her past is pretty fascinating. 8:18 What kind of character emerged in your mind from that, that investigation of her past? 8:25 Corey's past kind of murky, not a whole lot known in detail about sort of where 8:32 she came from and what led to that. 8:35 that. 8:35 But you spoke to her ex-husband and his story, the story he told police too about what they 8:43 should be looking for, was telling us for sure. 8:46 That's not a story you tell somebody sort of on the spur of the moment. 8:52 You know what I mean? 8:52 Alec, her ex-husband calls police and when he hears Talene is missing and he's like, 8:56 look, couple things. 8:57 One, you're not looking for a live person or a body, you're looking for body parts. 9:01 and second you're looking for ricin which is this I mean I don't know if exotic is 9:08 the right word for it but highly unusual out of the mainstream poison that that 9:14 is used in you know like by terrorists and in assassinations and stuff and his 9:22 story is Corey was making ricin when they live together in Wisconsin and she 9:28 He told him that she broke into the neighbor's house and spread ricin to kill them. 9:35 She said, I'm making ricin to deal with our enemies. 9:38 She said, that's how he quotes her. 9:40 Now the interesting thing about this is that the people living next door to Corey and 9:46 Alec in Wisconsin hardly meet the standard of being an enemy. 9:52 I mean, I'm not sure they actually had any dispute with them. 9:55 Cory may have believed that they were the source of the township sort of saying 10:02 you have too many animals you have to do something about them you know you're 10:05 making a lot of noise and they smell bad and neighbors are complaining but the 10:09 Ziegler's who I spoke with at length they say no that that wasn't us that was 10:13 one of the other neighbors who made that everybody was upset about that 10:16 this really is killing an ant with a cannon I mean rightion rightion is a 10:20 pretty strong response yeah you get in a you get in a pretty small dispute 10:25 with your neighbors, and the next thing you know, you're spreading a poison that's used, 10:29 you know, to assassinate foreign leaders and things. That's kind of crazy. Now, by now, 10:36 six years have passed. It's pretty clear the Zieglers didn't suffer any ill effects from 10:41 that ricin, because it turns out it was incompetently made. 10:44 Thank God for that. I mean, can you imagine? 10:47 But because by the time that everybody realizes that was ricin, it's like six 10:54 years later and Mrs. Eagler can barely find any of it still in her house, which is a good 10:59 thing because they would have been killed very quickly if the ricin had been made properly. 11:04 And of course, the recipe for ricin was found on Corey's computer in one of the search 11:09 warrants, but that's just a coincidence. 11:12 Of course it's a coincidence because everybody looks for things like ricin and it's normal. 11:17 And when we come back, we are going to have a listen to a bit of a conversation that 11:22 Josh had with Corey, you'll get an impression of just what this woman is like. 11:56 not available in all states. 12:26 details. If you're the type of person who wants data, not assumptions, 12:31 prenuvo's whole body scan gives you a deep understanding of your health. 12:36 Screen for over 500 conditions, including many cancers, autoimmune disorders, 12:41 neurodegenerative diseases, and more. Add blood panels to test over 80 biomarkers, 12:47 and you've got information about your body you may never have had before. 12:51 book your scan at prenuvo.com. That's P-R-E-N-U-V-O.com. 13:01 You fully expect in the first, in the early part of this story, that this strange group, 13:06 this, in fact, the defense is going after this possibility that this people involved 13:11 in this, in this strange group of, what would you call them, the, what's the name of it? 13:16 The Gaurians. 13:17 The Gaurians. 13:17 The Gaurians, yeah. 13:18 You know, there was a series of novels made into a movie. How many people are in that 13:27 lifestyle? I don't know. It appears to involve consenting adults and it appears to involve 13:37 master-slave relationships between men and women. It is, I'm not going to say a secret 13:45 society. It's just sort of something that people don't talk about except to other members of the 13:51 group. It's a subculture. People might not understand. Yeah. Well, I mean, normally, 13:58 homicide investigations have a nasty habit of pulling back the covers on everybody's secrets, 14:05 whether or not they are related to the crime itself, right? No secrets in a murder investigation. 14:10 Right. 14:11 Right. 14:12 You're having an affair, you're embezzling money, you know, you're a tax evader. 14:19 Like all this stuff is going to come out because investigators don't know which is 14:24 going to be the part that actually plays into this. 14:27 However, very quickly it became clear to them that they sort of weren't getting any 14:34 leads in that. 14:35 Like whatever, whatever was going on, it didn't really directly have anything to do with Talina's 14:42 lifestyle, which she and her husband had practiced. And then, and then he had, he had died of a stroke 14:48 a couple of years earlier. So did it involve other people who were in that lifestyle? Possibly. 14:54 I mean, they certainly looked at that guy Marty, also known as Wolfie. 14:59 Yeah. 15:00 Corey points at him as the main suspect. 15:04 Investigators clearly looked pretty hard at him. 15:07 Here's why they thought that Marty Wolfe was not a good suspect. 15:13 He was in terrible physical shape. 15:15 You can see that in the interrogation video. 15:19 He had a drug problem. 15:22 He died of an overdose. 15:23 dose. It's doubtful to investigators anyway and to others involved in this that he would 15:32 have had the physical strength to move Talina around in that freezer that he would have 15:39 been able to physically inflict the blows on her. But also, you know, when investigators 15:47 are talking with witnesses or people who are maybe persons of interest, they're 15:54 watching very carefully to see what they say, how they say it, what they admit to, 15:59 what they hold back. And in that part of sort of the investigation, Marty came 16:05 across as truthful, even admitting some things he'd done that maybe were not 16:10 completely legal, like breaking into Talina's house and taking a chainsaw, 16:14 which he later ended up confessing to and bringing back. Marty came across to investigators 16:19 as truthful and helpful. Corey came across to investigators as shading the truth, changing 16:28 her story, not telling the truth all the time, and also lying about little things, 16:35 which always makes investigators sort of sit up a little more in the saddle. 16:40 Did it surprise you that she was prepared to talk to them as much as she was and that 16:43 she was prepared to sit down for an interview with you. 16:46 You know, when you talk with Corey, like when you see Corey in this story early on talking 16:51 about her friend, Talina, who was missing, like her affect is not that of a guilty person 16:58 who has been caught. 16:59 She is exactly talking the way an innocent person would react if a friend of theirs were 17:06 missing, which is sort of what made that interview work and why we put it sort of 17:10 all the way through. 17:10 You also got the impression, again in the first hour particularly, that you'd be hearing 17:16 more about the relationship between Talina and Corey and that there was, you know, in 17:22 the aftermath of their marriages, they got together as two women and there was some 17:27 sort of romantic attachment which might get stronger. 17:30 So I want to play a little bit of your Q&A with her. 17:35 When you asked her about that very question, I thought that was pretty interesting stuff. 17:39 here it is. Two of you were just friends and roommates. Just friends. There was no other 17:44 kind of romantic relationship there. None ever whatsoever. In fact, when Talina's husband died, 17:50 she really disavowed interest for a long time in anything romantic or sexual. And when I finished 17:58 my relationship with my ex, I took vows of celibacy. I was really not interested in any 18:05 future relationship either. 18:06 It's been suggested that you wanted more out of that relationship than Talina did. 18:11 Which is, I guess it's not unusual or unfounded for these people to think that, given Talina's 18:24 lifestyle. 18:29 Not true. 18:29 No, not on any level. 18:31 There are people out there in the community who knew that there was nothing between 18:36 us other than a very strong platonic friendship. 18:39 Right. I'm not asking whether there was anything between you. 18:46 Right. I wouldn't be afraid to admit if there was, but there was nothing sexual between us. 18:50 And you were not interested in that. 18:51 Not interested at all. 18:54 You know, there were a couple of different schools of thought about motive in this case, 19:01 And that plays into one of them. 19:05 There are people involved in this who think Corey wanted some kind of relationship and 19:13 Talina didn't. 19:14 I will say that beyond the sort of anecdotal musings of people who are Talina's friends, 19:21 we have no reason to believe that that is true. 19:23 We have no reason to doubt Corey's word on that particular issue. 19:28 Second, there are people who believe that this was about money because if she got 19:33 Talina out of the way she'd be able to use her credit cards and you know get 19:38 to her bank account and then there was all the stuff in the house that she 19:41 could sell and Corey was very accomplished at selling stuff online. 19:45 And then there are there is a school of thought which includes the 19:49 prosecutor in this case that there was some kind of fight between the two 19:52 of them and Talina was gonna kick Corey out of the house and Corey 19:56 didn't really have anywhere to go and so she killed Talena sort of out of anger and to prevent 20:01 herself from being put out of the street. I'm not pretending to know which one of those it was, 20:07 but I will say that the Corey wanted more of a relationship than Talena did appears to be the 20:14 one with the sort of least foundation. But it's interesting that there'd be so many possible 20:19 motives and yet they didn't really zero in on anything and say that's it that's why this 20:24 happened. And it's a terrible thing that happened. You've got to, you naturally want to feel 20:28 as if there is some very strong motive behind it. 20:31 Well, you do. And all of us, I suspect you as well, sort of tend to approach murder cases, 20:39 looking for a motive that we can sort of understand within our own ethical framework. 20:45 Right? Like why would somebody do that? Like, because it doesn't make any sense to 20:49 that it was for this reason or that reason or, you know, right? So, you know, that's usually a 20:55 mistake because the only frame of reference that matters in a murder is the one of the murderer. 21:02 It doesn't matter what you and I would do in that situation. It matters what they would do 21:06 in that situation, you know, and some people, you know, had sort of, you know, lived lives 21:13 without consequence. You know, if you've gotten away with a lot of things in the past, 21:17 even if it's not murder, you might think, well, I can get away with this too. 21:21 You know, the verdict in Wisconsin suggests that Corey, you know, believed that she'd already 21:27 gotten away with attempted murder. And so, you know, maybe, maybe there's nothing to fear. And 21:34 it may very well be that she sort of thought, you know, these rural sheriffs investigators and 21:40 this DA that actually, you know, represents multiple counties, they're not going to figure this 21:45 out. Well, they did. That's a pretty common thought. The criminal who thinks that they're a 21:51 little smarter than the people who are serving. I'm smarter than anyone else, yes. Well, you know, 21:56 this case never made it to a courtroom. Corey, you know, Corey pled no contest. 22:02 Yeah. Original first degree murder charge was reduced to first degree manslaughter. 22:06 I think Corey's defense team did a pretty good job here. I don't think there's any 22:11 question about that. I mean, her attorney, Rachel, that's the kind of person you would 22:14 higher if you were in real trouble. No question about that. This is a circumstantial case. 22:19 Now, as we've discussed before, circumstantial evidence can frequently be the strongest evidence 22:23 there is, right? 22:25 It leads you carefully down a nice road toward inevitable conclusion. 22:29 Right. So there was a circumstantial case, but I thought a pretty good one. Corey pled 22:34 no contest. This is different from what you heard many times here on Dateline and elsewhere, 22:39 where, which is something called an Alfred play in which, in an Alfred play, you acknowledge 22:44 that the evidence will convict you in this case that you did it. 22:49 Yeah. 22:49 Right. 22:50 When you do it without an admission of guilt. 22:52 And in this case, you also don't admit guilt, but you're not admitting that the evidence 22:56 will convict you. 22:57 You're just saying, we do not contest the charges. 23:00 In the end, it doesn't make very much difference to her because she's gone to 23:02 prison for, you know, effectively the rest of her life. 23:05 I mean even if you only serve a small portion of that she's not a spring chicken particularly. No, she's not a young woman, right? 23:13 Yeah. Well, we are going to take a break and when we come back, we will address some of your questions from social media or Mr. 23:21 Mankiewicz here. 23:26 If you're the type of person who wants data, not assumptions, 23:30 prenuvo's whole body scan gives you a deep understanding of your health. 23:34 Screen for over 500 conditions, 23:36 including many cancers, autoimmune disorders, neurodegenerative diseases, and more. 23:42 Add blood panels to test over 80 biomarkers, 23:45 and you've got information about your body you may never have had before. 23:50 Book your scan at prenuvo.com. That's P-R-E-N-U-V-O dot com. 23:56 When an intruder approaches a home, they expect a camera. What they don't expect. 24:00 Stop. This is simply safe. Police are on the way. 24:03 Using smart AI cameras, live U.S.-based agents help deter intruders in under 30 seconds. 24:08 Don't just record a break-in, stop it from ever happening. 24:11 Plan starting around a dollar a day. 24:13 Right now, get 60% off your new system with professional monitoring at simplysafe.com slash SXM. 24:19 30 seconds response time requires monitoring plan with outdoor protection starting at 49.99 a month. 24:23 Visit simplysafe.com slash licenses for alarm license information. 24:26 You know that feeling when too many things fall through the cracks? 24:29 Monday.com was built for that gap. 24:31 The AI work platform where people and agents work side-by-side to deliver more together 24:37 Create your first Monday agent today at Monday.com 24:44 Well, hello everybody and we're back and Josh now is going to answer your questions about this episode 24:52 So let's do it 24:55 Josh there are several questions. There seems to be a popular 25:03 episode I 25:04 John Kavanaugh on Facebook asks, what's the accent on Rachel Tolina's best friend? 25:11 She's from Great Britain. 25:13 Sounds it. 25:14 She said that a lot of people in that part of Oklahoma couldn't place her accent. 25:21 Yeah. 25:22 S. Floyd on X says, I'm guessing authorities were to dig deeper into Corey's past. 25:29 they might find other instances similar to this one. Under pressure, she doesn't act like a beginner. 25:37 Well, S, if I may call you that, that is something that both 25:44 Talina's friends and law enforcement thought about because there is kind of a zero to 60 25:53 the element of this. Like, like, if you believe in Cori's guilt, and I mean, she now has two 26:02 separate verdicts. Then you got to believe that she sort of never committed any crimes 26:08 before making an exotic homemade poison and trying to kill the Zieglers and then, you 26:14 you know, beating Talina to death as she, as she slept, although she has not been charged 26:23 with anything else. 26:24 And I am unaware of her even being investigated for anything else. 26:28 So I mean, at the moment, this is all there is. 26:31 It is not, as you say, zero to 60 though. 26:34 You're right. 26:34 You know, it's, it does make people wonder, is the correct answer to that. 26:39 The tip in 2026 on X asks, why isn't this person wearing prison guard? 26:44 If any of you with Josh. 26:47 Because although she was in custody at the time, they usually have access to regular 26:53 clothing because of court appearances. 26:55 So that wardrobe is usually there. 26:57 Sometimes their attorneys supply them with clothing, which I think might have happened 27:02 in this case. 27:04 Let's go to CMO and X who asks, did anyone check market system for ricin? 27:09 They did and the results were negative. 27:12 Also, they checked Talina and the results were negative. 27:16 Marty's death officially went down as a drug overdose. 27:20 And given his history and his physical condition, 27:25 that is 100% plausible. 27:27 Gotcha. 27:28 Patricia Ann Watkins on Facebook asks, 27:31 I would like to know who the other person was. 27:34 And this is a very good question. 27:36 Who the other person was seen dumping the freezer?
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