Show full transcript 0:33 With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, 0:36 it's no wonder that Capital One Bank Guy 0:38 is so passionate about banking with Capital One. 0:42 If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you 0:44 about no fees or minimums. 0:46 He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes 0:49 are open seven days a week to assist 0:51 with your banking needs, yep, even on weekends. 0:54 It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. 0:57 What's in your wallet terms apply see capital one comm slash bank guy capital one in a member FDIC 1:06 Hi everyone, I'm Blaine Alexander and this is Talking Date Line today 1:15 I'm joined by Andrea Canney to talk about her episode the betrayal of Kirby Carpenter. Hi Andrea 1:20 Hey Blaine 1:21 This story takes us to a small town in Mississippi where a successful businessman is found murdered outside of his home 1:28 What starts off as a possible robbery eventually leads investigators to a shocking betrayal 1:34 involving people that Kirby trusted. 1:36 But before we get into it, if you have not yet listened to the episode or watched the 1:40 episode, make sure you do that. 1:42 You can find it right below this one. 1:44 Or of course you can go stream it right now on Peacock. 1:47 So go do that and then come right back here. 1:50 When you come back, we will hear more from Andrea's interview with Jeffrey Spence's 1:53 daughter, Carolyn Aguayo. 1:55 And later, some of our producers will answer some of your questions from social media. 1:59 All right, Andrea, let's talk Dateline. Let's do it. 2:02 So Andrea, this was a great episode. This was one of the episodes that I was like, 2:06 I don't know which way this is going to go. And I had my thoughts at the beginning and 2:10 then circled back and they turned out to be true at the end. Before we dive too much in though, 2:14 Andrea, I want to get you to just take a second and give us a very quick recap of the episode. 2:19 So Kirby Carpenter was 36 year old, a father of two. 2:24 He was a quintessential entrepreneur. 2:28 He had a golden silver shop. 2:30 He kind of sold everything in there. 2:32 He had a steakhouse at one point. 2:34 He had a liquor shop at one point. 2:36 And he really dealt in cash. 2:39 And so then he turns up shot dead outside of his house. 2:44 And given the fact that he had all these cash-based 2:47 businesses. It appeared it could be a robbery at first. Of course, it turned out he was not 2:53 robbed by your average thief. It turned out that it was his girlfriend, the mother of his child. 3:00 It was her father who had killed Kirby, Jeff Spence. And so after going through a number of 3:08 suspects, they landed on Jeff Spence and not only was Jeff arrested, but his wife Karen was 3:14 arrested, Caitlyn, his daughter, who was Kirby's girlfriend, she was also arrested. 3:20 Caitlyn and Karen made deals with law enforcement and then Jeff is in prison in Mississippi. 3:28 Yeah. 3:29 Wow. 3:30 Just hearing you even kind of go through that, one of the big questions that viewers 3:34 always ask a lot of us is how do you guys come up with these stories and where do 3:38 you get these stories? 3:39 And this is something that you had actually been covering for a while on True Crime 3:43 weekly, right? Yeah, we had done the story. And so it's always interesting when you do it on the 3:50 podcast and then it becomes an actual TV episode. Yeah. So it's, you kind of bring the case more 3:58 alive, you know, with when you go out and you actually start meeting everyone and shooting 4:02 interviews. You know, it was unbelievable. Of all the interviews that you had in this episode, 4:07 and there were so many that were good, I'm so glad that we got to hear from Kirby's mother 4:11 because I think hearing her. 4:14 Yes. Oh my gosh. 4:15 I loved Maddie Jane. 4:17 I loved her. 4:17 First off, I was like, that's a good Southern name. 4:19 Maddie Jane. 4:21 And she's- 4:22 She was a slight twang. 4:23 Like Miss Maddie Jane. 4:24 Mm-hmm. 4:25 She's Miss Maddie Jane. 4:27 Yes. 4:27 My favorite line in the show is when she's like, 4:29 you better up your game. 4:31 And they did, by the way. 4:32 That second trial, 4:33 they came with some significant new evidence. 4:36 They sure did. 4:37 They didn't have the first time around. 4:37 I was thinking, I was like, 4:38 they really did up their game. 4:39 They sure did and that's where, you know, that that's when like old-fashioned detective work comes in, you know 4:45 that they they had these photos of the vehicles in 4:50 Jeff Spence's yard, you know where at the house he was renting and 4:54 the detective looked at the tag numbers on 4:58 Some of these cars, right? Because when you got a lot of cars 5:00 you're not necessarily driving them all the time some of them are junk some of them are, you know 5:05 and he hadn't run all the tags through the tag reader system, 5:10 you know, that you see, you know, 5:11 tag reader systems are all over the country. 5:13 They're on light posts and who knows where else. 5:18 And so, yeah, he decided to run these tag numbers 5:22 that he hadn't thought of running before. 5:24 And lo and behold, he got a hit on one of them 5:27 that was headed on a highway in, you know, 5:30 in Tennessee toward Mississippi. 5:31 So that really put a wrench into Jeff Spence's alibi. 5:38 We're gonna dive into that phone interview 5:40 that you had with him later on, 5:41 cause I have so many questions about that 5:43 and I just love the way you went about it. 5:45 But let's talk about the great state of Mississippi. 5:48 I did a story from Mississippi earlier this year 5:51 bringing Jay home and we both interviewed the same DA. 5:55 The same prosecutor. 5:57 As soon as I saw DA Ben Creek Moore pop up, 5:59 I said, what, there he is again. 6:01 What are the odds of being on Dateline twice in less than a year? 6:05 I know. That is pretty amazing, huh? To be on twice. 6:08 So one of the things you and I have in common is that we both worked in local news. 6:14 We both started in small markets. 6:16 And Mississippi was one of your first stops along the way. 6:20 It was my first WXVT in Greenville, Mississippi. 6:23 I was living in Los Angeles. 6:25 I was working for the television show Extra behind the scenes. 6:28 and I decided to make a reel and I traded babysitting with one of the editors at Extra 6:35 who put my reel together for me and I had no local news experience at that point. 6:41 And so I sent out 50 tapes, you know, I'm dating myself here VHS. 6:48 And I got two calls, one from Nebraska and one from Greenville and they, 6:56 My old boss, Terry, had a phone interview with me 7:00 because they didn't have the money to fly me out there. 7:02 And he gave me a current events quiz and said, 7:05 you have to get at least 10 of these right 7:07 or else you don't get the job. 7:08 And I was like, ooh. 7:09 So anyway, I ended up passing and he's like, 7:12 you got the job. 7:13 So I packed up my car and had itself. 7:18 That is an epic first job story. 7:20 I love that. 7:21 Yeah, so it was nice being back. 7:23 I wasn't in the, the Delta is where I was an anchor. 7:27 But, you know, this was Tupelo area. 7:30 And this is something that I think most Southerners 7:33 will probably agree. 7:35 They talk a lot. 7:36 They talk about like a lot of things. 7:38 They'll tell you what they had for breakfast. 7:40 They'll tell you that they walked the dog. 7:42 It's all the Southern friendliness coming out. 7:44 It is. 7:45 It's like the chatting. 7:46 It really is. 7:47 Absolutely. 7:48 I always say here, like in the Northeast, 7:50 like if I go on a walk, you know, 7:52 it's hard to even get someone to smile. You know, I'm always trying to engage like, 7:56 hi, and like people are just looking down or they're, you know, it's just a thing. I mean, 8:02 I like people in the Northeast, but they are not like the people in the South where if you go for 8:07 a walk, everyone, you know, they want to stop and talk to you. Can I say that's one of my 8:10 favorite things about living in Atlanta? I've lived here for 15, 16 years and I love it. 8:15 I love the Northeast, but I, you know, you do want some of that friendliness, right? 8:20 It feels different. It feels different. Yeah, you can start that way with Andrea Canning. 8:24 You can be the change up there. I'm trying. I make such an effort 8:28 every single day to try to engage and smile and say hi to people. So I'm doing my part. 8:34 You're doing your part. That's all we can ask. I love it. 8:37 Coming up, we're going to hear more from Andrea's interview with Caroline Aguayo 8:41 about the fallout within her family. 8:43 Is that a word? 8:50 In the 2026 Kia Sportage Turbo Hybrid, it might as well be, because it can be one road trip. 8:57 It's all about turbocharged power and hybrid efficiency working together, 9:01 so you get the thrill of quick acceleration and the satisfaction of fuel efficiency. 9:06 Book a test drive and keep the adventure going. 9:09 Kia, movement that inspires. 9:12 Call 800-333-4-KIA for details. Always drive safely. 9:16 Every night is a screen this October with Fear Fest on AMC and AMC Plus. 9:23 A month-long party of your favorite horror movies. 9:26 So good, it could wake the dead. 9:29 Hi, I'm Chucky, wanna play? 9:31 It's a killer non-stop lineup that includes Halloween, 9:34 A Nightmare on Elm Street, Friday the 13th, 9:36 Tales from the Crypt, and all the best slash hits. 9:40 Is this fun or what? 9:41 Non-stop horror, one terrifying month, AMC FearFest. 9:50 Oh, look. 9:51 You just got added to a meeting about coordinating another meeting 9:56 to prepare for the pre-meeting ahead of the follow-up meeting, 10:02 which will, of course, require a recap meeting. 10:07 And then another meeting. 10:09 Hit your booking point. 10:12 Book with Southwest in an airplane mode. 10:20 You know, it's fun. 10:20 One of those things where we always talk about how, 10:22 oftentimes, the community itself can become a character 10:25 in our Dateline episodes. 10:27 And I think that this was the case. 10:29 But also Kirby's personality seemed to fit that to a T, right? 10:34 It made sense that his store was kind of this gathering place 10:38 where people could come and just kind of explore interesting things 10:40 because he was a very interesting guy. 10:43 I found myself wanting to know so much more about him. 10:47 He tried to go into the military, but he had a heart issue. 10:52 And so his mom told us that he had to leave because of that. 10:56 And so he reinvented himself and turned into this Mississippi entrepreneur. 11:03 In our episodes, there's always so much more about the person that we learn 11:07 while we're kind of reporting on this than we're able to actually fit into the episode. 11:12 So I wonder if there's anything when you think about Kirby Carpenter, what is it that stood 11:16 out to you the most about him? 11:19 He definitely seemed to really like being a dad. 11:22 His family talked about him, his son Towns, who was apparently his little mini-me. 11:27 He took him everywhere. 11:29 They liked all the same things. 11:31 He was involved in all of his sports and they would go hunting and they would go 11:35 out in the, because Kirby had a sprawling property. 11:37 So, they would always, you know, go out into the back 11:40 and they'd go, you know, four-wheeling. 11:42 He sounded like he really enjoyed that side of his life 11:45 was being a parent. 11:45 So, that's really sad that, you know, 11:48 both of these children are going to grow up 11:51 without their father. 11:52 Of course. 11:53 And such a dedicated father at that. 11:55 Yeah. 11:56 And, you know, that brings me to Jeff Spence. 11:59 The daughters, his daughters, 12:01 Caitlin and her sister, Carolyn, 12:02 they describe Jeff as this very present father 12:06 when they were growing up, that he was at all the sporting events, that he was the best dad 12:10 they could ask for, that he was so engaged and he was loving. And it's like, well, what happened? 12:16 What happened? What happened? I have to say that the final few minutes of your episode when 12:23 we talked about the courtroom and then the family kind of, you know, face to face with 12:27 Jeff for the first time in six years and then the sisters coming into contact. I mean, 12:31 it was just so sad to see how what seemingly it was just a beautiful normal nuclear family just 12:39 was so broken apart and there were so many things in this family and I don't want to use the word 12:47 dysfunctional when describing people. I think you could look at that and say this was not 12:51 a well-functioning family, right? I think it turned into that. Yeah. It definitely evolved 12:56 into a dysfunctional family, you know, it was so interesting hearing from Caroline and Geo. 13:02 Talk about how they really, you know, Geo really liked Jeff. Jeff was nice to him, 13:07 just like Kirby thought Jeff was nice, you know, and then what happened with Geo and Caroline, 13:13 how things just totally went off the rails when they invited them to come live with them 13:16 and they're doing this construction work and then everything just falls apart and you see 13:22 like tearing the fence down, the dad, and why are you doing that to your daughter? 13:28 Like, what are you doing? And then Gio, literally being afraid for his life. 13:35 After that life insurance conversation, like, why don't you take out life insurance, 13:39 I'll be the beneficiary. Right after an argument. 13:42 Oh, okay. So why in the world would his father-in-law be the beneficiary of a life 13:48 insurance policy, like, oh, don't worry, I'll take care of it. 13:51 I'll take care of Carolyn. 13:53 When he said, you know what, I might die today. 13:56 If I die, here's what you need to do. 13:58 Like that was unbelievable to me, just that he was so convinced that this 14:03 person could try and end his life where he was just like, gosh, you know what? 14:06 He could come after me, like just be prepared. 14:09 So that was the sort of the indicator of like, am I, his thinking is, am 14:14 am I going to go move this stuff and I'm going to be ambushed, you know, while I'm moving 14:19 these tree branches or whatever, you know? 14:22 And I did a story in Kentucky in Bardstown where an officer, Jason Ellis, in Kentucky 14:33 was gunned down because there were branches in the road. 14:36 He was on his way home from his shift. 14:38 He pulled over his cruiser. 14:40 or he got out to go move the branches. 14:43 And there was a sniper in the tree 14:45 and he was ambushed and killed. 14:47 That's horrifying, by the way. 14:49 Because that's a common, 14:51 I mean, most people wouldn't think twice about just, 14:52 hey, let me get out, let me clear this out of the road. 14:55 Right. 14:56 Yeah, and this is Gio's account, of course. 14:58 Yeah, of course. 14:59 You know, this is what he says happen. 15:02 Right, right. 15:04 You know, going through, 15:05 I mean, when you were interviewing Carolyn, 15:08 and did she seem to have an idea as to what caused things to go off the rails? 15:14 No, like she didn't. 15:15 She really didn't. 15:16 She seemed very confused by her father's behavior, because they welcomed him in. 15:23 Yeah. 15:24 So what they wouldn't have done that, you know, if there were these serious issues, 15:27 like she of course, she was she was happy to help them. 15:30 Yeah. 15:31 So she doesn't really have an explanation for it. 15:35 You know, he's he's had a lot of like it seems 15:37 like Jeff had a lot of failed businesses over the years and failed at, you know, attempts 15:41 to make money. And that's why they moved in in the first place because of financial reasons. 15:48 And I'm sure, I don't know if you want to talk about Goliath, but that was 15:52 a really interesting part of this story was the buck. Because the buck was like, 15:58 this is part of Jeff's, one of his businesses was that he was a deer breeder. He was also 16:03 like I think he bred German shepherds. He had all these businesses, right? All the time. Different 16:08 things going on. And he was convicted of stealing Goliath, this million-dollar deer. Did you ever 16:16 think that a deer could be worth a million dollars? One would never think that. No. I never 16:20 realized livestock could be so valuable. But yes, unbelievable. And so he is convicted of 16:26 of taking this deer and for the sperm, 16:28 because you can breed with this powerful buck's sperm. 16:35 Sperm and DNA, like, yeah, so that was, it's very odd. 16:40 The whole thing is odd. 16:41 You know, can we talk about the dynamic 16:43 between Carolyn and Caitlin? 16:45 Because I was so sad to see, I mean, these two sisters, 16:48 even their names are similar. 16:50 I mean, they just seem to go together, right? 16:51 Like you kind of think about a sister bond 16:54 in relationship. And my goodness, for it to kind of splinter into what it did was wild. 17:01 It was just really heartbreaking to see. Right. And then look who's at the center of that. 17:05 Yeah. Jeff, right? They're dead. I mean, he's causing all these problems, right, with 17:11 Caroline and Gio. And then Caitlin gets upset at Caroline and Gio. And then Jeff goes and ends 17:19 of spending all this time, months at Caitlin's place. 17:24 And then her boyfriend ends up dead. 17:26 And then she ends, Caitlin ends up arrested. 17:30 You know, Jeff is at the center of all of this. 17:33 In talking with Caitlin, I wonder if, 17:35 because as I was watching this, 17:37 and we heard, you know, Carolyn and Gio, of course, 17:39 talk about what they say happened with Jeff, 17:42 I wondered how Caitlin felt when it came to loyalty. 17:46 Right? 17:47 Like, of course, she was like, oh my God, 17:48 did you call the police on dad? 17:49 but also, do I believe my sister? I mean, it seemed like she, it seemed like one would have been torn 17:55 in this type of situation. Do I side with my dad? Do I side with my sister? Which way do I go? And 18:00 this, did you get that since? I mean, according to Carolyn, it seemed like she sided with her 18:07 dad immediately. So, you know, I don't know if she was torn because it didn't, according to 18:14 her side of it. It didn't seem like she was. But then Carolyn did reach out, you know, 18:21 eventually when she found out that Caitlyn was pregnant, you know, she sort of gave extended 18:27 that all of Branch to her sister. You know, of course, you interviewed both sisters and 18:34 great interviews. Let's go to some extra sound because I mean, we've talked so much 18:38 about this family. And at one point you asked Carolyn if she ever thought that there could 18:42 be any sort of reconciliation. Let's listen to some of that. 18:46 Where do you two go from here? Is there any chance that you will ever reconcile with Caitlyn? 18:53 Are you able to get your own sort of closure from this, from all you've been through? 18:59 I think, you know, with Caitlyn, it would have to be a complete heart transformation. 19:06 And I'm just not sure that she's done with it yet. 19:10 I think that she has been comfortable with things 19:13 over the years that just like my parents 19:16 have been increasingly more criminal. 19:20 And I don't think there would be a change 19:25 unless there was a complete change. 19:29 Yeah. 19:30 And it is still somewhat fresh, right? 19:34 a lot can change with time. 19:37 So I mean, I wouldn't count them out 19:40 that they will someday reconcile, 19:41 but they've been through a lot. 19:44 Oh yeah, absolutely. 19:46 You know, watching this, 19:47 I was struck by several juxtapositions 19:49 when you talk about family, right? 19:51 Like family just seemed like a central theme 19:53 in all of this. 19:54 So of course you have the juxtaposition 19:55 of like the doting father that Kirby was versus Jeff. 19:59 I mean, two very different images of dads. 20:02 And then you also have Miss Maddie Jane 20:03 who was just such a clearly supportive mother like just the back and forth, the juxtaposition 20:10 between the two parental units was striking as well. Yeah. And I mean, Kirby was Maddie 20:16 Jane's world. You know, she was loved her son so much. Yeah. And then you have Jeff who 20:24 is willing to, you know, just like do these things. And then maybe there's accusations, 20:30 There's feelings that he brought Katelyn into this. 20:35 You know, she was arrested. 20:36 How much did she know? 20:38 You know, she talks about this conversation 20:40 at the waterfall about her dad and, you know, 20:43 that read between the lines. 20:46 He was sort of confessing maybe. 20:49 I mean, the whole thing is a little muddy. 20:51 Of course. 20:52 But the fact that there's even thought 20:55 that maybe Jeff brought his daughter into this 20:58 is not good. 21:00 But it seems to me that money was more important to Jeff than his family unit because this was 21:05 over money. 21:07 Absolutely. 21:08 Let's talk about Jeff and your interview with Jeff. 21:12 Can you give us a little behind the scenes? 21:14 How did that interview, that phone interview from JL come about? 21:17 Well, we were supposed to do it. 21:19 I was all set up in Mississippi to do the interview. 21:21 He was in Parchman prison at the time when we were trying to do our first interview. 21:28 and I had actually been inside Parchman Prison when I was in Mississippi. I went there and I 21:34 did a story on a ministry that goes into the prison and the wives of the members of the church, 21:42 they cook a lot of food and so they did end up getting a lot of participants in the prison, 21:48 you know, engaging because they wanted the food and then they ended up going to church. 21:52 So I was in there before in Parchman. However, fast forward how many years, many years, 21:59 they would not let us inside Parchman. You know, wardens change, policies change. And so 22:06 we were waiting because we were going to do this phone interview. We were all set up in 22:11 Mississippi and we waited and waited and waited and he never showed. So we're like, okay, 22:16 I guess he changed his mind. 22:18 And then finally, he agreed to do the interview. 22:22 And then at the end, he said, I'm really glad 22:23 I did that interview. 22:25 That behind the scenes is stunning to me. 22:27 I think that so many of our viewers and listeners 22:28 don't realize how much just goes into getting these people 22:33 to sit down sometimes and agree to talk with us. 22:37 When I did my jailhouse interview with Fred Tanser 22:40 for my episode that aired a few weeks back. 22:43 Who walked out on you? 22:44 He walked out. 22:45 But I was, we were scared that he was going to walk out immediately because he came in and sat down with this 22:50 list of rules and I'm only gonna talk about this and that and of course we don't agree to that, right? 22:55 Like we never agree to, we're not gonna ask you this or we're not gonna ask you that. And so I'm thinking gosh 23:01 okay, let's keep him in the chair to, of course not gonna agree to these terms and conditions he's trying to put forth, 23:07 but also we want the interview. So let's keep him in the chair and it just you know 23:11 it kept on going, but there is always that moment of uncertainty of, will this happen? Will it not? 23:15 What's going to happen here? Andrea, this was a fantastic episode. I love the people. I love 23:21 the interviews and just thank you. Thank you for talking Dateline with me and for bringing us 23:25 this episode. Always happy to talk Dateline with you, Blaine. Okay, Andrea and I are both 23:30 headed off in different directions, but don't go anywhere because we've got a treat for you. 23:34 Two of our very stellar producers are going to join us after the break to 23:38 answer some of your questions from social media. 23:44 Whoever said fork in the road 23:47 must have been hungry for the Sorento 23:48 and Sorento Turbo Hybrid. 23:51 They're three row seating 23:53 and 10 year 100,000 mile limited power train warranty. 23:57 With a capable Sorento and Sorento Turbo Hybrid, 24:00 every way forward is the right way. 24:04 Visit your local Kia dealer today. 24:06 Kia, movement that inspires. 24:09 Call 800-334-KIA for details. Drive safe, see retail for warranty details. 24:14 Every night is a screen this October with Fear Fest on AMC and AMC Plus. 24:20 A month-long party of your favorite horror movies. So good. It could wake the dead. 24:26 Hi, I'm Jackie, wanna play? 24:28 It's a killer nonstop lineup that includes Halloween, a nightmare on Elm Street, Friday the 13th, 24:34 Tales from the Crypt, and all the best slash hits. 24:36 Is this fun or what? 24:39 Non-stop horror, one terrifying month, AMC FearFest. 24:46 Oh look, you just got added to a meeting about coordinating another meeting 24:53 to prepare for the pre-meeting ahead of the follow-up meeting 24:59 which will, of course, require a recap meeting 25:04 and then another meeting. 25:07 Hit your booking point, book with Southwest 25:10 in NRAirplane Mode. 25:17 Hi guys, my name is Rachel White 25:19 and I'm the producer of this episode. 25:21 I'm here with my senior producer, Allison Orr, 25:25 to answer some of your questions 25:26 and comments from social media. 25:28 Hey Allison. 25:29 Hey Rachel, hi, hey, let's get into it. 25:31 All right, so the first question we have here 25:34 comes from BobbyG62 and he said, 25:37 He said, why on earth would he carry that much cash? 25:41 Probably the first question I asked you when we started talking about the story. 25:45 Like, what? 25:46 Yeah, it was a lot of money, a shocking amount of cash to carry for sure, but what you have 25:51 to understand is that Kirby Carpenter dealt a lot in cash, in gold, in silver, and, 25:58 you know, his family, the police told us that at any given time throughout the day, 26:02 weekend night holiday whenever someone might call him and say hey I have 26:07 something you might be interested in purchasing and he would just go and meet 26:10 them to make the deal so he needed it. Okay and then we have Up Reality Alley 26:17 and they're asking us are flock cameras and license plate readers the same 26:23 thing. So flock cameras and license plate readers are similar. Yeah like 26:30 Flock is like a brand of licensed plate reader, right? 26:34 Correct. And they do more. So they have more technology than just your average licensed plate reader. 26:40 Got it. Okay. Now we have a comment from NoMoreMandoFun saying, I think Jeff did it, 26:48 but see no direct evidence yet. I can see why the jury was split the first time this is a weak 26:54 case. So it's definitely a circumstantial case and that is something that the prosecutors 27:02 and the police knew going into it, which is why we, you know, saw that first trial I think 27:09 end up with a hung jury. And it was split six to six, which if you watch a lot of trials, 27:15 if you pay attention to the court system, that's a very big split. Typically you have 27:19 of maybe one or two people holding out, 27:22 but to have an evenly split jury is really rare. 27:26 So I think that that is largely a reason why 27:29 is people thought that there wasn't enough 27:31 circumstantial evidence, but then going into trial two 27:34 with the addition of the Tracy Delp testimony 27:37 saying that Jeff confessed to him, 27:40 and you also had the tag reader 27:42 finding Jeff Spence's van traveling south toward 27:45 Mississippi, so I think those things 27:47 helped the second jury feel more confident in their conviction. 27:51 All the things that Maddie Jane told them to step their game up. 27:56 Yes, exactly. She said it and they did it. 27:59 And they did it, yeah. All right, and now next, Joan Davis wants to know 28:05 why probation though, talking about Caitlyn, how about at least a year in jail or five years 28:11 in prison? What about the mom? 28:14 So, right. So, I think a lot of people had that sentiment. I know that Kirby's family 28:19 was really surprised with the deal that Caitlin was offered. I think, you know, her defense 28:25 attorney, Tony Fries, makes the point in our show that the prosecution needed her testimony 28:30 to get a conviction for the person who they theorized actually pulled the trigger. 28:36 That goes back to the other point you're making, that it was a weak circumstantial 28:39 case without her testimony, what is the case? 28:43 Right, because you have that conversation that she tells jurors about where her dad essentially 28:49 confesses to her. 28:50 So without that, the case is, you know, much less strong. 28:54 So I think that for the prosecution, they felt like they really needed her testimony. 28:59 She had already served months in prison, so they were giving her time served with probation. 29:04 And I think for her defense attorney, he knew that they needed her. 29:08 so he worked to get her a deal that would mean that she could be released and be with her daughter. 29:13 She pleaded guilty to accessory to murder after the fact. 29:17 It's good lawyering on his behalf. 29:19 It is. 29:20 And mom, the question also asked about what happened to mom. She took an Alfred plea, 29:26 which means she did not admit wrongdoing, but she conceded that there would have been enough 29:32 evidence to convict her of what exact charge was that that she pled to? 29:38 So she pled guilty to grand larceny after the fact. So that is what her 29:44 Alfred plea was in reference to. Her charges in the beginning were capital 29:48 murder as well. All three, Jeff, Caitlin, and Karen Spence faced capital 29:52 murder charges. So Karen and Caitlin now are free and Jeff of course is
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