Show full transcript 0:26 Vitamin B12 and magnesium contribute 0:28 to the reduction of tiredness and fatigue." 0:30 Hillsong was a global megachurch drawing more than 100,000 worshipers each week. 0:35 Its services felt like concerts. Its front rows included celebrities, 0:39 and one of its biggest stars was Carl Lentz. 0:42 Alongside his wife Laura, he led Hillsong's New York Church and became known as Justin Bieber's 0:48 spiritual advisor. From the pulpit, he preached faith, commitment, and family. 0:52 Then in 2020, he was fired. He admitted he had been unfaithful to his wife. 0:57 The woman at the center of the headlines was Renean Kareem, a New York jewelry designer 1:02 he met in a park. 1:04 In my exclusive interview, she described a married man who kept pursuing her, even when 1:08 she says she tried to end it. 1:10 He was outside my building taking pictures telling me he was there but I didn't want 1:13 to open the door. 1:14 And she says the contact continued even after the scandal. 1:18 He contacted me from a fake iPhone pretending to be a reporter and told me that he loved 1:22 me then, he loved me now, he loved me forever. 1:24 For Reneen, questions about accountability remained. 1:28 It's always about him and what's effected him and how it makes him look. 1:31 Now, Carl and Laura are back in the spotlight, promoting Overcoming Infidelity, a new book, 1:37 with a message that marriage can emerge from betrayal stronger than before. 1:41 But can you ever fully trust someone who built a secret life behind your back? 1:46 His former mistress Reneen Karim has her own thoughts, and she's speaking out. 2:23 Before we get into today's episode, a quick update. With Carl and Laura Lentz back in the 2:28 news promoting overcoming infidelity, we reached back out to Renean for her thoughts. The interview 2:34 you're about to hear was recorded in 2023, but the questions it raises about betrayal, 2:39 accountability, and who carries consequences remain completely relevant today. And if you 2:44 don't know this story, you'll hear how a chance meeting in a park turned into an affair 2:49 that upended his entire life and hers and left her with a public label she struggled to move beyond. 2:56 First, Renean sent me this statement directly. These are her words exactly as she sent them to me today. 3:03 Rachel, I can't keep reading this garbage. 3:05 People cheat because they don't know how to be satisfied and they think something outside of themselves will fill the void. 3:11 Writing a whole book about how to navigate cheating is kind of funny to me, honestly. 3:16 Sometimes, the problem isn't the relationship or the person you're with. 3:20 It's something missing, unresolved, and unhealed within yourself. 3:24 Instead of taking the time to look inward, understand your own patterns, and work on 3:28 yourself, you turn to someone else to fill that emptiness. 3:32 What I find disturbing is when people position themselves as experts on something they haven't 3:37 even taken the time to understand within themselves. 3:40 You can write a book about anything, but that doesn't mean you've done the inner 3:43 work to truly understand it. 3:45 And honestly, it feels like everything has become about making money, even when it comes to something as painful as betrayal. 3:52 Not everything needs to be packaged into a book and sold as a solution. 3:56 Sometimes the real work starts with being honest with yourself. 3:59 And then there's Carl and his wife who seem to love staying in the spotlight. 4:03 Have they ever given that same attention to the children who were molested by the church, 4:07 the people who were exploited and all the heartbreak trauma and suffering the church caused? 4:12 What about their stories? 4:13 What about the people who are still carrying that pain? 4:16 Instead, the conversation seems to keep circling back to their own personal situation. 4:21 And that's what bothers me. 4:22 It feels selfish when the people with the platform and an audience continually make 4:26 their own experiences the center of attention while so many others have suffered in silence. 4:32 If you have a platform, why not use it to bring attention to the people whose voices 4:36 have been ignored? 4:37 Why not speak about the pain and suffering that go beyond your own personal story? 4:43 At some point it stops being about helping people and starts feeling like everything is about them and 4:48 Honestly, I find that disturbing again. That was Renean statement. Here is our original conversation. Hi, so welcome. Thank you so much for joining me 4:57 Thank you so much for having me. So I guess we have to jump right into you know 5:01 Why we're kind of here the documentary came out this weekend, right? 5:05 The first two parts the second two parts will be out. I guess this coming weekend or shortly 5:10 Have you seen it? 5:11 Well, I did because I felt I received a lot of feedback from different people, mostly 5:17 like very disappointment, you know, a lot of disappointment from people that have worked 5:23 for the church, was part of the church, followed Carl for a long time. 5:28 So I just felt like, since everyone was also upset because how I was showing, I wanted 5:34 to really like see it because it's funny enough, I didn't watch my own documentary 5:37 because I felt like this is way faster and just don't like watching myself so it was 5:41 easier to just see to watch that one but I did I watched both of the first 5:47 episodes. They did not contact you to be in it, did they? Before I decided to go 5:53 with the New York Post and they eventually went on Discovery Channel they 5:58 I had the reporter who actually interviewed me for Vanity Fair reach out 6:04 to me I wasn't sure if he's going to do that with them but I feel like it 6:07 was in the works so he didn't give me a guarantee as for if they're gonna like you know pay me 6:14 for my time so of course that I didn't want to do it for free anymore so I decided to just 6:19 go ahead and work with the post and I believe that he is part of it that's why eventually 6:25 they end up doing the documentary but yeah so I wasn't sure if that was for that but 6:29 I'm sure it was. 6:30 So this documentary it's the first time that Carl Lentz has spoken out right 6:34 in like three years or something? 6:36 Two years. 6:36 Two years, okay. So what was that like hearing in his words, how he thought things went down? 6:43 I mean, I'm going to be honest because when I watched it, it was a lot of tears from his 6:49 end and his wife's and he likes to cry a lot. So I was really laughing when I watched it because 6:54 I was like, he cried in front of me so many times. So I just don't think his tears are genuine. 7:00 I don't think it's not surprising to be honest from everything that I was showing and the 7:08 way he spoke about it. 7:09 I feel like he knew everything from the beginning because you cannot be in just a big system 7:15 and big church like that and not knowing exactly what's going on for so many years. 7:21 So I just know that it got to a point where he had to hide for two years and not say 7:26 anything because he probably got paid to keep it quiet. 7:28 But then it's easier to come to come back and just through all the blame on somebody else, right? 7:35 So had you ever been to Hillsong Church? If funny enough before I before I met him 7:40 I was going through a divorce and my best one of my best friends 7:45 You know, I was going through a lot of you know 7:47 Things with my ex-husband and she wanted to help me and she took me there 7:50 It was they had one in 14th Street in Union Square 7:53 And I didn't know nothing about it because you know, I'm not even Christian 7:56 let's put it that way. I'm Muslim. I grew up, you know, Muslim in every aspect. And I was very open to 8:02 how, you know, how can I heal myself? And for me, it's like, if I went to the church, not because 8:07 I believe I'm Christian, it's because there's something beautiful about being around that, 8:11 around people that can somewhere heal you, if it's through a Bible or Quran, whatever. So 8:16 I went there out of, out of wanted to like heal, not because I was really like wanted 8:20 to be a Christian or convert or anything like that. So I went there one time, I do remember 8:26 hearing about him, seeing him, not really remember his face. It was like 2015. It was 8:31 a long time ago, 2014. And I didn't know nothing. So looking back, when meeting him was just 8:37 so ironic to like thinking that kind of briefly seeing him and not really seeing him and 8:43 knowing of him, knowing of the church and being there one time. And then physically 8:46 meeting him was just very, very a big moment for me because I was very confused to why 8:53 me and why it all that happened. So. So but he didn't make that much of an impression on you 8:57 that you remembered who he was the first time you met him. No. So that I think that's important 9:03 because a lot of people are confused. They think you met him because you were part of the church 9:06 and you went there and all that. Why don't you start with the story of how you guys met? 9:12 So I was back in 2020. I was working for Celine and I was working from home. 9:19 it was during COVID. I went down in a park which is around my house. I was sitting in the circle. 9:24 They had like those circles that everybody had to sit, you know, two feet away from each other. 9:29 And I noticed while I was working on my phone, my work phone, I noticed a person like stretching 9:35 on the bench. And I was sitting literally across from the circle, I mean from the bench, sorry. 9:40 And he kept looking, I mean he had a can of Coke. And I know he drinks Cokes after working 9:44 out of playing bowl, which knowing later on that's what he used to do. Yeah. And he was stretching, 9:49 then somebody came from a nowhere, I bought him a blanket. I didn't even notice that it was so 9:54 briefly because I was, I wasn't paying attention much. It was like looking up. There's a lot of 9:58 people was in the middle of the day. It was sunny. It was in May. Funny enough. So I turn 10:04 around was girls are sitting next to me. They were talking to me about my dog asking where 10:08 I'm from because of my accent. And I have noticed that he sat in one of the circles 10:11 and he kept watching us and he kept looking and looking and I and I can tell 10:17 that he was dropping his ears because you know he's a guy he looks he's a 10:20 good-looking man wasn't wearing a ring nothing like you don't unusual and he 10:25 was sitting on his iPad working whatever it was so he was actually doing 10:28 push-ups on the circle and then I was about to head out I go back home 10:33 because we were late and I noticed that he he saw me getting up and he got 10:38 up at the same time and he said you can take my circle and I said I'm 10:40 okay, I'm actually going home. 10:42 So at that moment also was some guys just gave me a paper 10:45 and he said, hey, please call me. 10:47 Like he gave me a little note and I took the note 10:49 and I was like folded it and put it on my hand 10:51 and kept it and then when I started walking with Carl, 10:54 he was like, I was telling him it's so funny. 10:56 I just, I'm very, very friendly when I meet people. 10:59 I'm not gonna be rude. 10:59 So I was like, he started walking with me, 11:01 which I thought is weird. 11:02 But okay, we walk in the same direction, 11:04 he's handsome. 11:05 I was just like, okay, cool, let's walk. 11:07 And then he, I told him it's so funny. 11:09 this guy gave me this his phone number and it was like random and I just ripped it in front of him 11:13 and I just threw it away and he said to me well you know like how long you live in a neighborhood 11:17 he said ask me a lot of questions and we kept walking towards so I found out later on that the 11:22 first time they had the church was in this area on Kent and it was one of those big buildings 11:27 and he walked that direction okay so when I when I asked him I saw somebody bring you a blanket 11:32 he said yeah I used to live around here for 10 years and then we walked and we got to a corner 11:36 where I had to go up back to my house and he went back to those big buildings and he gave me 11:42 his phone and he said, because we talked about his age, we talked about certain different things 11:47 and then he was very curious. He asked me a lot more questions more than I asked him and I don't 11:52 mind sharing but I feel like he was being nosy so I didn't want to talk too much but then he 11:56 said he handed me his phone and he opened his notes and he asked me to write and he's my number 12:01 on his notes and I thought it's really strange and I'm like okay he's 41 maybe he's a little 12:04 old in his brain. So maybe I'm just like, I'm gonna follow his lead, whatever. So I wrote 12:09 hit my number. And then I, you know, when you text someone usually have the little emoji 12:15 face, and I had like my emoji on my picture. And he said, Oh, this emoji doesn't do just 12:19 it the way they do to the way you look like. And I was like, Okay, that's already flirtatious 12:23 comment, right? And then he sent me photos of his dogs. And he told me it was so 12:28 nice to meet you. That was the highlight of my idea of the park. And you kind of 12:32 Okay, he's really like trying me, you know, like it's not like and I was at that point I said can I 12:37 please have your last name because I want to save you on my phone and he was like oh I don't I 12:41 think it's better for us to like maybe meet again or have you knowing me rather than you like 12:46 researching and doing your thing so he knew that I'm gonna do that because everybody googles 12:50 everyone I don't want to be around a psycho you know so so I kept like he sent me a photo 12:56 of his dogs to show me that he have dogs like because he met my dog my dog was with me 13:00 And I was like, oh, you know, like, and we kept chatting and then he said to me, 13:04 well, tomorrow, when you go to the park, save me a spot. 13:08 And that was Friday. 13:09 So Saturday, I went back to the park and I asked him, do you like coffee? 13:12 And he's like, oh, you're so nice. 13:14 We're why I didn't meet you before. 13:16 Like very much kind of like where this guy came from, you know? 13:20 We get to the park. 13:21 He was sitting really far away from the park and I can't see him. 13:25 And I was like texting him and say, why actually I called him and his phone, 13:28 I think was dead because the battery from the heat whatever his one wasn't working and then he noticed me 13:34 And then he came around he said on the bench and I was sitting on the grass 13:37 And I he kept asking me questions like and I and I cut him off and I said wait 13:41 Do you ask me too much question? What do you do like he said? 13:44 I told you I managed like athletes and I traveled with them and I was like 13:47 You're an agent while you're like and he asked me what he do 13:50 I said I worked a knife life before like I know a lot of people in the industry 13:53 He said the same thing is to travel and party with people and he just get went on on and I had 13:57 And I get to a point where I was very curious, like what is your story because you seem very 14:02 mysterious. And he sat on the grass with me and I said to him, these photos you send me of your 14:07 dogs, where are they? He said they're in New Jersey. I said, are you married? That's what I 14:12 asked him. And he said, yes, I am. And I said, okay, so for how long you've been married? 14:17 He said for 17 years or so. And I said, okay, so at this point I was like, 14:21 this is really annoying because it's like, why are you wasting my time? Right? 14:24 Two days now you spent with this guy. 14:27 And now he basically, because the day before he was saying, like, oh, you know, 14:30 we should do some tequila together and do some shots. 14:33 And then he planned, he's like, I'm going to hit you up later. 14:35 And I was actually on a date with somebody else and he hits me up. 14:38 And I said, OK, so let me know. 14:40 I mean, if I anything, I can just leave because I liked his attention more 14:43 and I wanted to like bounce. 14:45 But he never got back to me. 14:46 It was not a big deal because I just met him. 14:48 But the day after I was very bumped, I'm like, this is annoying 14:51 because who want to waste so much time and talking to someone going anywhere? 14:55 So he ended up, he said, I have to go have a meeting. 14:57 I have to be on a zoom, whatever. 14:59 And he left. 15:00 Later on, I get a message with from him of a picture street. 15:04 Like he took a photo from the from the penthouse he was staying at our metropolitan. 15:08 And he said, send me a photo. 15:09 It's like, if you take a photo, you can see me from the park. 15:13 So he took a far photo to be like, Oh, I can tell you were disappointed. 15:17 You know that I told that I was married. 15:18 I said, actually, yeah, because kind of like, you don't do all of this for nothing. 15:22 Let's just really not okay. And then he said, you know, and it's okay. Maybe you can just come 15:26 next time. You can have weekend time on the roof. He invited me to his friend's house. 15:30 And I said, it's okay. Like whatever. And then I would end up discussing to actually meet up. 15:36 And I said, it's okay. We can just be friends. We can just have drinks because I can separate 15:39 from being wanted to be, to be into you and actually have you as a friend. Woman knows how 15:44 to put guys in the friend zone and we can, we really good at that and men doesn't. 15:48 So we can just turn the switch off, which I did. 15:51 So he ended up inviting me, he called me face and he said, oh my God, you look so beautiful. 15:55 Whatever do you mind if I come to your house and I was like, I don't know, I don't feel 15:58 comfortable. 15:59 I really don't have any, because my home is like my temple, I really don't have people 16:02 in my home like that. 16:03 It's very personal. 16:03 And this was like the third day now? 16:05 This is the same Saturday. 16:07 The same Saturday. 16:07 Second day. 16:08 Yes, the second day. 16:09 And then I remember he asked me, you know, he came over, he brought the 16:13 tequila with him in his backpack. And then he sat on the couch cross for me. Like he's 16:18 there by the wall and I'm sitting here. And he was like, Oh, do you want to get more comfortable 16:22 and maybe change? And I said, this is a weird request. They asked me to change my pants. 16:26 So I did actually, because I was wearing those pants. I was like, okay, I'll wear like, 16:29 you know, like shorts, you know, like I have shorts. So I wore shorts and he was, 16:33 he was, you can tell he wanted to feel more comfortable. And then I started asking 16:37 him like a little more questions. So prior to that, that Saturday, I went home 16:40 and I was going crazy and I'm like, I need to find out this guy's last name. 16:44 I need to figure out who he is. 16:45 And I said, OK, I'm not going to invite a stranger to my house 16:48 when I know who he was. 16:49 So I go, I went online. 16:51 I found this app that you can pay a dollar to find out more details on the person. 16:56 And like a reverse. 16:58 It's not like it's more like of like you put their number 17:00 and it gives you all their background, right? 17:02 Would it come from? 17:03 So I put his number, which is a Virginia number. 17:05 OK. And and then I looked at it. 17:09 everything came up and he says what his last name and I was like oh my god and then I looked him 17:12 up and I said this is so crazy because I briefly saw his face somewhere because the church was like 17:19 hill song like back then when I went to the church in 14th street it was the stages was like it was 17:24 a theater so you have a lot of like those like balconies and then I was on top of the balcony 17:29 you can see the stage so I wasn't really able to see the whole stage you can see glimpse 17:33 of it because there's a lot of people and so you didn't see his face that close up no but 17:37 I thought it's really weird. I'm like he backed and I was like he's wearing those skinny jeans 17:41 He looked like a rock and roller like he wasn't like a pastor to me 17:45 Which I wasn't really I don't know nothing about that but back then I didn't know so 17:50 So whatever so we go back to my house 17:52 We know you know he was sitting we're talking and then towards the end of the night 17:56 Nothing really happened like you know, we were chatting and he was like I feel so bad 17:59 I shouldn't be doing this like he was walking by my door 18:02 standing by the door and we talking and I said to him relax it's all good like 18:05 nothing's like we're okay like I was laughing I was like it's not a big deal 18:09 like I feel like he was more emotional than me you know it's like I was just 18:12 okay I'm living in New York I'm a woman we all go through disappointments and 18:17 like rejections all that thing so it's normal so he ends up leaving and then 18:20 he messaged me was so nice whatever do you mind if I text you sometimes check 18:24 on you like he wanted to keep it going right and that's what was 18:27 upsetting to me because people start saying things about me you don't 18:30 know the whole story because I have tried to tell him to leave me alone multiple times 18:35 because I know that he's somewhere he's not really, it's not registering what he's doing 18:41 because he was so reckless like to how things ended eventually. 18:47 But it just went on and on and then he one time, June what else do you want me to tell 18:53 you? 18:53 Because it's a lot of information. 18:54 You just gave so much information. 18:56 So let's slow down for one second. 18:57 Okay. So I think it is a very interesting thing that people do not talk about enough that married men or married people, whatever, say a lot of things to get their way and they're very deliberate about it. 19:11 Correct. 19:11 And you know, I think a lot of people are very quick to blame things on the mistress and say it's all the mistress' fault. 19:17 Correct. 19:18 And the mistress gets the stigma and always keeps the stigma. 19:21 Correct. 19:21 But, you know, I think the thought is kind of like, oh, this woman swooped in, stole 19:28 him from his wife, you know, corrupted him and, you know, was like this disease or this 19:33 weapon of mass destruction that blew something up. 19:36 Many times it's the men making it okay and saying things that, you know, we want to 19:42 hear or saying things that is not true about what's going on in their life, but 19:47 they want it to be true. 19:48 So you were single, right? 19:50 I mean, you could date anyone you wanted and so it wasn't your issue. It was his and you eventually it sounds like went with 19:58 Your gut on this guy's making it okay. So 20:01 What's the problem? No, and I think it's that's what I kept saying like none of the he had a choice 20:07 Yes, because he did came to me and he asked me to go sit on the bench. I literally told him 20:12 You you he said that to me. That was a hurtful moment. He said I go back to my family 20:16 you go back to nothing." And I said, that's a good point because I really don't go. Honestly, 20:20 I go back to blank canvas that I can draw anything on it because, you know, you go to your 20:25 family that are clearly unhappy because you married somebody that you were forced to be married to 20:31 because that's what they told you to do in order for you to get to where you got in your life. 20:36 And it's all, it was all monitored and planned because in reality you didn't, 20:42 I even told him one time and he agreed and I said, you like this kid, 20:45 They want to play so badly, but but it's been like hiding inside of you and he looked at me 20:51 He said yeah, and I said that's why you're you drowning in yourself, right? And I kept telling him 20:57 Like basically wake up like like get your life together because you are you you're like a disease that hurting everybody else 21:03 Including me even that I'm not even I didn't look for you. I had no idea who you are 21:07 I never met you in my life before rather than just a moment. I don't even know who you are 21:12 like as a person. I don't I'm not even questioned a Christian. There's so many 21:15 elements that come into play where I really did not look for this person. And 21:19 people think that I looked him up, DM'd him, like I never knew him. If I didn't 21:24 see him at the park, I'll probably never see him again. Right. You know. So it 21:27 just really upsetting because I get those messages sometimes we're like, 21:30 I'm home wreck and I'm this and I'm that. How when clearly this 21:34 documentary talks about how he had a relationship with his nanny. Yeah. So we 21:38 need to stop here because I need to be, people nowadays need to thank me for what happened 21:43 to that church because otherwise people will be abused, used, like there's so much damage 21:50 that's been done that they need to sit here and say, thank you for what happened. 21:54 Not come and make me feel somewhere bad about it. 21:59 And for people that don't really know the story, what ended up happening is your 22:03 or affair was what took his career down, right? 22:07 How did people find out about what happened? 22:10 So basically, I'm gonna, 22:12 so around the last time we kind of spoke, 22:15 okay, so everything fell down 22:16 and I think it's end of December 22:18 and maybe October or December around that time. 22:21 I really cannot remember the date. 22:22 But before that, his daughter was going through something 22:26 because he did reach out to me in September. 22:30 And when I told him to stop contacting me 22:32 he was kind of like, I'm contacting you. I know you're going to delete the message, 22:35 but I don't know who to talk to. And I feel like because you care about me, I want to believe 22:39 you care about me that my daughter tried to take her life away. And he just shared something so 22:43 personal, which I was blue in a way. And I even told my friend, I don't even know how to 22:47 respond to this. Because if I was his wife, I'll be pissed because he shouldn't be talking 22:52 about his personal life because he's sharing something so private between the two of them 22:55 with you. Right. But then, but then he wanted me to have empathy and sympathy. So 23:00 That's the only way I can respond to him. 23:02 So after that first, whatever, after the situation, 23:05 I fell into it again, you know, I was, I felt really, 23:08 I was mean to him and I was kind of like telling him 23:10 that he's so selfish, he's just trying to find a way 23:12 to get my attention and he did. 23:15 Cause I'm not an evil person. 23:16 I'm not gonna just ignore, be like, 23:17 fuck you and fuck your family, you know? 23:19 But I did respond and I said, you know, 23:21 I'm here for you if you need anything, whatever. 23:23 And after that, we went back to the routine of like, 23:25 he's like, I'm gonna, he kept, it's so bizarre. 23:28 I cannot even explain to you how it just felt like he was really in a dark place, but he kept like 23:33 wanted to 23:35 Be cared for and like so he kept coming back 23:37 He will like say i'm staying or where my daughter is like in the in the clinic 23:41 But i'm gonna drive a car and come see you and he did 23:44 And to the point 23:46 where 23:46 Which really upset me because i'm like if you really loved your family you care about your wife the way you speak about her 23:52 Why did you 23:53 find it okay to stay at Justin Bieber's house, 23:56 two blocks away from my house and ride his motorbike 23:58 and come to my house at 11 o'clock at night 24:00 while your wife is at his house. 24:03 So this whole things got really reckless, as I said, 24:07 and to the point where Hill's song, 24:10 kind of like whoever was at the church 24:13 was looking into his iCloud 24:14 and they saw the exchange of text messages 24:16 between me and him. 24:17 And that's how eventually he messaged me 24:22 and he basically he sent me a video he wanted to come over that one day and then 24:27 I told him like I'm not don't put him on a time frame because it's not doesn't 24:30 work like that so then I told him that yeah because he was kind I could come 24:33 from this I'm like that just let's not do it because already it's it got to a 24:36 point where it's just we stretching it too much and it just I'm in and out 24:41 of this it was too much so were you in love with them do you think he 24:44 was in love with you at this now okay I think today when I look at it 24:50 from a different, you know, angle, I would say it was more of like, fascinating, being 24:58 fascinated or like obsession, because I was something that it was secret for him. 25:03 And, and he talked about a documentary, he's just born into like the secret thing, talking 25:07 about his abuse and all that stuff. 25:08 So I just think it was something that he needed to be his like something private 25:14 or something that he can feel like that it just, I don't know, something people, 25:19 Some people love to have secrets because it just it feels makes them feel alive. 25:23 Yeah. You know, and I think that's what he needed it. Right. 25:25 And and honestly, if if if things didn't blow up the way they did, 25:30 he will probably never stop. 25:32 I had my roommate seen him riding the bike outside my house. 25:36 And he told me as I was like, 25:38 I was hoping to see you twin the trash that I can bump into 25:41 when I told him not to talk to me anymore. 25:42 This is how I felt like people didn't see those perspective 25:45 Because I honestly, Rachel, I didn't tell too much about what happened between us because 25:50 I didn't want to destroy him. 25:52 I didn't want to get into details because he was really, he was like, I think he was 25:59 in love with me in a sense where like, I haven't seen somebody so, like, so wanted to be involved. 26:05 Like he came to my friend's house, waited for me downstairs. 26:07 He wanted to talk to me. 26:08 Like he was outside my building taking pictures, telling me he was there, but I didn't 26:12 want to open the door. 26:12 like this is I don't know if it's obsession but like the needness of like to be loved and want to 26:17 be loved and be noticed you know and I think that's like a kid that never got attention from his 26:21 mother you know. Yeah it's so interesting that you say all this because I mean if you're like 26:26 looking at it from a psychological perspective this is a guy who is on stage who people are obsessed 26:33 with. I mean people stand you know 7000 people deep in a line to go see this man and hear him 26:39 speak. And frankly, he was amazing. You know, you can see it in the documentary. I went once, 26:45 I'll tell you my story in a second about when I met him. But, you know, he, that is his calling 26:51 in the way that he is very good. You know, whatever the intention is behind it, doesn't 26:55 matter for a second. But his, his, the way he is a public speaker, the way he's an actor, 27:01 sort of, the way he creates this effortless way to take faith into your life and preach 27:09 reach to other people and have people who may not even believe in that, but by the end 27:14 you're like, wow, I feel something that I didn't know I could feel, whether it's they're 27:19 interested in God or whether they just feel at home with the group next to them, whatever 27:24 it is, there's something magical about him and what he did. 27:27 So I get that like so many people are in love with him. 27:30 What I think is interesting about men like him, and I've met men like him, I know 27:34 them very well. 27:35 they are used to people putting them on a pedestal and they don't realize or 27:41 people you know civilians sort of don't realize these people are just normal 27:44 people at the end of the day and they need to be loved in a way that like they 27:50 want to be known but not known for the stuff that people put them on a 27:53 pedestal for they want someone who knows intimate details of them because 27:57 that makes them feel loved and it's real love and I think people really 28:01 don't understand that because that is something that is missing in a lot of 28:05 these men's life, people's life that I think are on this pedestal that people are obsessed 28:09 with and they almost feel like they can't live up to it and they don't really believe 28:13 that in themselves or they're living off the high of that but when they go home, his wife's 28:17 asking him to take out the trash, put the kids to bed, he's not on a pedestal for 28:22 his wife. 28:24 So I think it's people forget that they do crave an intimate relationship with 28:30 someone, whether it's their wife, whether it's somebody else, to feel that feeling because 28:35 I think a lot of those types of people are very lonely has been my experience and dealing 28:40 with some issues that we end up seeing in the documentary. 28:43 And the documentary was really interesting because he comes out from a perspective 28:48 of having not spoken for two years, like you said. 28:51 Everyone's kind of wondered what happened to him. 28:55 And everyone kind of thought, if you think of Hillsong and Carl Lentz, that the scandal 29:00 revolved around him and you, basically, or the affair. 29:05 But what we've come to see is that was just like a crack in the glass wall or whatever 29:12 of what happened with the church because it was so much bigger of an issue. 29:16 And the issue for him, I think, listen, men shoot all the time, women shoot all the 29:19 time. 29:20 I don't think in this day and age, it's that uncommon. 29:24 People can say, oh my God, that's so disgusting and make so many judgments. 29:29 I don't think anyone doesn't know someone who's cheated. 29:31 So I think people have to stop and just relax for a second. 29:36 But the issue with him was that this wasn't what he was preaching from his church. 29:42 You're not supposed to have infidelities. 29:44 You're not supposed to go outside your marriage. 29:46 Your marriage is supposed to be the thing that you love. 29:48 The bottom line is there are so many things that he's preaching that he's not living by so I think that was he said that to me though 29:54 Did he did he literally said to me like I feel 29:56 Hipper kid because I I help people with divorces and I help with cheating and all that stuff and I'm sitting 30:01 I'm doing this he had he had moments where he was sitting set on the edge of the bed my bed 30:06 And he cried and he said I'm 41 and it's like in like I'm he was disappointed 30:11 He knew that yeah, I don't know he had a feeling when he was sitting there that 30:15 But you know, when you hear somebody that they know that their life is about to crack, 30:18 but they're not giving you a reason, like they know that something is about to blow 30:22 up, but they just cannot pinpoint it. 30:24 Like, it's just, he had a feeling that there's an end to this, but it's going to end really 30:28 bad. 30:28 And he just said, he's like, my wife is amazing at like, and I'm 41. 30:32 And I feel like my life is just like, like it's, it's all, he's just took so, he's, 30:36 you can tell that have a lot of weight on his shoulders. 30:38 He was a lot of going on where when the last time we spoke to each other for an 30:42 Now after he went to shock therapy in Nashville, he said he feels relief. 30:47 He feel like it's over. 30:48 This is done. 30:49 Like I'm now I can just lay there and just, you know, like just be quiet. 30:53 Like he needed that, you know, quick break here, folks, because I have to tell you this 31:00 conversation doesn't end when the episode does. 31:03 Some of my favorite moments never make the public podcast. 31:06 They happen after we stop recording behind the scenes or in conversations that are 31:11 just a little too personal for the regular show. 31:14 That's exactly what you'll find on Patreon. 31:17 Depending on your membership, 31:18 you'll get exclusive bonus episodes, 31:20 my weekly Palm Beach Life series, 31:22 behind the scenes content, 31:24 monthly mystery box giveaways, 31:26 and even the opportunity to book a one-on-one video call 31:29 with me about whatever is on your mind. 31:32 If you've ever wished you could be part 31:33 of the conversation instead of just listening to it, 31:36 this is your chance. 31:37 Join us at patreon.com slash misunderstood 31:40 with Rachel Yucatel. 31:44 Speaking of that you know that's very interesting so after this whole thing 31:48 blew up publicly I mean he told you about it first right he said this is 31:52 gonna come out or how did he he just had a feeling like it was maybe like two 31:57 weeks three weeks before that when he sat on the edge of my bed and he said 32:01 that but then later on when things when that hell song found all the images 32:04 whatever because he did say to me this is what he said that I'm telling 32:09 you like I feel like it's a chapter so that's okay one time he said to me 32:12 like he see himself like that he's not gonna do this for too long like he's not 32:17 gonna be a pastor for too long or he said we're gonna give 32:20 ourselves like maybe another five years and then 32:24 something else gonna happen oh we're gonna give ourselves 10 years so I think 32:27 he was hitting the 10 years I think it was more of a 10 years because they did 32:30 do 10 years in New York or something yeah it was a amount of time that they 32:34 already have done and he kind of like in the back of his head it sounds 32:38 like he knew he's gonna resign or he knew he's gonna have it's gonna go 32:41 somewhere else knew there was an end to something right and he did say that in 32:44 documentary so everything I feel like what he said to me I already knew like 32:47 what he said now I already knew that there was parts of truth in there yeah 32:51 but it was hard for me to believe him because he's such a good liar it just 32:54 it's hard it was just like he said things that he wanted to believe 32:58 himself yeah you know and I just think like it I understand listen when I 33:05 watch the documentary I understand the impact he had on him's like the 33:09 the pressure and like where he was and as you said before like when when you have so much to show 33:14 and have people following you and seeing you as this powerful person you don't know how to be 33:19 vulnerable you don't know how to to just sit there and be stagnant you feel like you're constantly 33:24 moving because you need to please others but you don't never please yourself right and I think 33:28 he kind of got lost in the mix and I did say that I really hope he saved himself that's what 33:33 I said in my interview in Good Morning America I said I hope that he eventually heals and he 33:38 fix himself right because he's he's really damaged not only because of the 33:42 church because it is a choice I'm sorry at the end of the day you chose to be 33:46 part of a huge mega church that you know the foundation with the abuse with 33:51 with Brian Easton's dad I honestly this one of the things that upsets me the 33:55 most where you swear in your kids but you were part of a system that abuse 34:00 kids that makes you a predator too that makes you I don't know like if 34:06 If you knew that that was it and you've been in the system for so long, you were supportive 34:11 of that. 34:12 Do you think he knew? 34:13 Did he ever talk to you about it? 34:14 Yes, I think there's no way that he'd know about that. 34:16 He just, there's no way. 34:17 And for people that are listening that don't know, explain what you're talking about 34:21 with Brian Houston. 34:21 So Brian Houston's dad, Brian Houston is the founder of Hillsong. 34:26 And Brian Houston's father allegedly molested one of the kids at the church and a seven-year-old. 34:35 Yeah. And then he never went to trial and his father eventually passed away. 34:39 And then now after what happened this past two years, 34:42 the Brian Houston actually is going to court for his father's, you know, 34:47 a situation, whatever he had to actually step down from step first. 34:50 And then, yeah, but thank God, I mean, think about it. 34:53 Why I was telling myself, why did I had to come with my story for it to 34:56 all crumble down and fall for some, for have a little more justice? 35:00 Like me, like actually, because the father of the child that got molested, 35:04 money was offered to him and they tried to give him, you know, to shut him off and not 35:09 talking. And I think years after he did speak about it, I think there's a documentary about 35:13 him somewhere on YouTube. I remember that I watched it was briefly. But to think that this 35:18 is all had to go down years after when the father's not even in the world anymore. So it 35:23 just, it's pretty messed up. I'm sorry. Like, I just don't see anything right with it. 35:27 Like, it's... Well, also it's crazy because Brian Houston was the one that let go of 35:31 Carl, who was the biggest thing. I mean, that's why people and, and he let him go and 35:36 he said it was for moral issues and that he wasn't following the morality of the church. 35:40 When here's a guy who ended up having to leave the church, I think within a year or 35:44 two later because it was found out he was having infidelities that, you know, the 35:48 church was, you know, allegedly corrupt with financial issues or misconduct. And then 35:53 these issues with his father are potentially, you know, allegedly molesting a seven-year-old 35:58 who came out and spoke. And I think it was actually documented that Brian Houston blamed 36:03 that on the child. You know, the child has come out saying that Brian said this was your fault, 36:09 you tempted my father, these kind of things. Oh my goodness, I didn't know about that. I'm 36:14 telling you because I know the abuse and the mistreating people have been happening 36:21 back in Australia. I have spoken to a lovely lady, I'm not going to mention her name, 36:26 that like, you know, she have spoken also in the media about how she was abused. 36:31 She went to the Hillsong, much more color like their college and she was sick at some point 36:38 and they had her cleaning the floors for hours, didn't care about her health. 36:42 Like so many awful stories where like she was dating a guy in the church and they didn't like 36:48 their, that they dated each other because she wasn't, she didn't look too white for them 36:53 because our hair color was different and they had her breaking up with this person and having 36:57 this person mirroring somebody else. It's very, very, like it's all about control and how they 37:02 monitor and who's going with who, like it just, this is, it's a cult, you know. 37:07 And they also didn't believe in being gay. So they made it very difficult for, I mean, 37:12 I think members of course were gay who came and worshiped there and followed Carl and followed 37:18 Brian, but the ultimate message of the church, even though the message was supposed to be, 37:23 come one, come all to our home, welcome home, they did not believe in gay marriage. 37:28 They didn't believe in people being gay in general. So I think that, you know, 37:32 took a toll on a lot of people that felt like they had to put that part of them aside 37:36 to be part of the church. So, yeah, so talking about that topic, which I never spoke about 37:41 it. So there's a lot of like, you know, you know, bisexuals, like, you know, gay that used to go to 37:48 the church. And when things start, like, you know, things happened back then, and, you know, when 37:55 things was exposed, I, I know that, you know, a lot of people was hurt from that. And there was 38:01 one girl that basically started to harassment, social media, I got to a point where I had to 38:07 involved with the police because it's like she was, you know, she was gay. 38:11 And well, she had also mental issues. 38:13 And then to think that she was, that was her leader. 38:17 She loves them so much. 38:17 She used to go to church every Sunday. 38:19 She used to go and sit in front, listen to him talking and imagine going 38:22 from having this person that like you felt that he was supportive of your 38:26 community, loves you, you are welcome. 38:28 This is home to vanish. 38:31 And it got to a place where I felt I was, I was haunted and blamed 38:35 Because I took this person from her pedestal, you know, like and a lot of people in her position 38:40 Especially if you like you feel like you're already not accepted in the world like and then you don't you don't get accepted in a church 38:46 Yeah, that's that's a very that takes a lot of mental mental like toll on people and I've seen the first 38:52 She was a big thing because I was scared for my life because she was she literally I seen her in my neighborhood 38:57 She threatened me like it was really scary where I needed to like I had to contact her friend and tell her 39:02 he needs to leave me alone because I don't know eventually it's going to come to my house. So it's 39:06 just this one moment like made me realize how a lot of people like her feels the same way, you know. 39:12 And also when I spoke, when I watched the documentary, I have heard people talking about how, yeah, 39:18 they made you feel like you belong. They had actually a gay person working for the church 39:23 and his boyfriend. And then when they went on a show, he actually was so proud to say that 39:28 who's part of Hillsong. And then Brian Euston went ahead and had a statement that they don't 39:32 support gay people. And he was in this and he's claimed that he denied that somebody in the church 39:37 is actually gay. And he was just when like, it didn't make sense, because it's just like, 39:42 they still trying to be cool and open minded. But then the foundation of the church is 39:46 really old school. It's very like what the Bible is and how it needs to be, because 39:51 it's basically being gay is being it's a sin, right? It's equal to death for them. Right. 39:55 And I don't know, it's just, it's crazy. 39:58 So another thing that came out in the documentary 40:00 that you remind me of now in talking about this 40:03 and all the secrets is that, well, we knew ahead of time 40:06 from the papers, Carl was having an affair with the nanny. 40:10 Right. 40:10 Did the nanny work for him when you guys were together? 40:13 Did you know about the nanny he never spoke about? 40:14 No, so I have to be honest. 40:16 It's something that I knew about Leona 40:18 before she even spoke to the media. 40:21 Yeah. 40:21 I had a source that I have spoken to that knew the Lance family. 40:27 And apparently, Leona's name was written in the diary that Laura wrote, and she knew about 40:34 it. 40:34 I mean, obviously, nobody spoke about it before, but the fact that they brought it up into... 40:39 This is what's crazy to me, because in the documentary, she said that it was mentioned 40:43 in the Zoom meeting, but I'm confused because Leona worked for her before this other 40:49 person that worked for her I know about, I know the story prior before he even came out. So it was 40:55 really like, I knew that Leona was like working for them as a nanny, her husband is still where he 41:01 still works for Hillsong. And she was working for them for two years, I guess, and then apparently. 41:07 And for people that are listening that aren't familiar, her husband was a pastor, I think, 41:11 and she was working. And Leona, who became the nanny for Carl, was also working for the 41:18 church in some capacity, right? So the church, I think the church actually had her working for Carl, 41:24 because you know, they do have volunteers. So even another girl in the documentary spoke about how 41:28 while Leona was babysitting Carl's kids, she was babysitting Leona's kids. And she was just bizarre, 41:35 she was giving 60, 70 hours a week. I'm like, first of all, like, why? If she can have, 41:41 she can have like, I think the church was actually again, controlling what they do, 41:45 where they go and whatever. And I think Leona ended up having to work for them. But more than be 41:51 with her own family. Correct. Yes. But what's weird to me, it's like, you know, because Laura said 41:58 in the documentary she did feel like something is off between her and her husband. But I'm, 42:02 and people still think that Leona was like, it was consensual relationship, 42:07 which I don't know if he was. Because he's very persuasive, like when it comes to what 42:12 he wants. And he kind of makes you feel like he's very a gentleman with the way he 42:17 touch you. But then the same time he just makes you feel like he's just not 42:21 invasive. You know, like it's very interesting how he moves, you know? So I 42:25 can see him. The way he knows how to persuade people on stage, you know how 42:28 to do it one-on-one. And I was monitoring his behavior because I'm 42:33 very curious about people, but I don't know what is her mental stage. Like if 42:37 she allowed, if she was really into it, if she really like felt like she 42:40 She doesn't lose her job. 42:41 You don't know what exactly would happen. 42:43 So I felt bad to hear the Yona story on the documentary because she came with her story 42:49 is being abused. 42:51 Why would she want to put herself in the spotlight if it wasn't real? 42:54 Yeah. 42:55 And again, for people that are listening, it came out that Carl was having an affair 43:00 on a Zoom call with everybody that he works with and Laura, his wife, happened to 43:05 be on the same Zoom call, which they knew she was, but they didn't know, I guess, 43:08 that she didn't know or maybe they did. 43:10 But it came out and Laura was devastated because it it confirmed all her suspicions that she said 43:16 She was having these suspicions. They were having an affair, but he had denied it. So that was devastating to her 43:21 right 43:22 She had she said in the documentary that before that she had found them in a quote-unquote compromising position 43:27 I don't know what that means guy where she pushed Carl and then she punched Leona in the face 43:33 Right and then can and then Leona continued to work 43:35 Which is crazy, they must have like convinced her that she was mistaken. 43:42 Maybe they just brainwashed her, I just don't know, I feel like when you hear the stories 43:46 from everyone, from people who worked for the church like directly or not directly, like 43:50 the power this church had or the people that worked for it, it's incredible because if 43:55 somebody punched me, I'm never going to come back to work for you. 43:57 Right, of course. 43:58 You punch her back, like I mean, the fact that she used to put her pride and 44:03 eager aside and came back to work. That's, that's some evil shit. I don't know. Like, 44:07 I don't really agree with this because I, I, as a woman, I want to be, she's a mom too. 44:13 So I feel like you guys, I'm talking about them, especially Laura and Carl, you want 44:18 to put on a spotlight. You want to talk about it as like she was okay with this, whatever. 44:23 And she agreed on that. But like, how about her family and her kids? You want 44:26 to protect your family and your kids, but she have family too. Yeah. And nobody 44:29 try to protect her, you just put her in a spot as she's this woman that worked for two years 44:34 and she's trying to steal your husband from you, but you still kept her there and you want her 44:38 to care of your kids. So I'm questioning you too. What did you do then? 44:43 It's a really good point. And then now, after the affair was found out, then she went on to 44:49 claim that it was sexual abuse and she was coerced and the power dynamic was so difficult 44:55 because he was the boss and it's really easy to see that even though it was 45:00 quote-unquote consensual. It's not like she was forced to have sex with 45:05 them or whatever went on but I think at the end of the day she felt that it 45:10 was in her best interest to continue a relationship where she would be kicked 45:14 out of this church which for many people it's their whole lives. The 45:17 way you hear people talk about being in that church, being a member of the 45:22 church, not even working for the church, but it's like, has changed their life. So I can't imagine 45:27 how difficult that would have been for her if she felt like she was going to lose her job, 45:32 if that relationship didn't continue. So we don't know what really went on behind closed doors, 45:38 but at the moment, Carl is denying that. I think that's a big statement that came out 45:42 in the documentary that he said unequivocally, he did not sexually abuse Leona. It was 45:48 consensual and you know he's you know moving forward with that. It's a little bit interesting to see 45:53 what happens there. Because he's like you know her husband her husband worked for you. Like it just 45:58 I feel like there's no accountability. It's kind of there is accountability but it's none it's like 46:02 it's like a semi okay I'm gonna take responsibility for what I did but it's really like and then 46:06 you can hear it because one minute he'll say well I was wrong I was did I know I'm in 46:11 fault and things in it but then let's blame Hillsong let's blame Ryan Euston he just 46:15 take to like he's kind of shifting everything like to wish you washy. 46:18 No, that's what I noticed the whole documentary. 46:20 It didn't feel like, you know, it just kind of like feel bad for me. 46:23 I look miserable. 46:24 I look bad now. 46:25 I went through shit. 46:26 Great. 46:27 Like it just I just don't feel there's a genuine behind everything. 46:32 The whole time the documentary was going on. 46:34 I didn't hear none of her Laura or because she was a pastor too. 46:37 Or her husband saying we sorry for what we have done to people that follow us. 46:41 We saw it that, you know, that we, we led, you know, anyone wrong, like just, there's 46:47 no apology. 46:48 Yeah. 46:48 There's no apology. 46:49 And the issue was is that they let down so many people who love them, gave their whole 46:55 life to them, believed everything they said, and then they weren't living that reality. 47:00 I think that was what really hurt people. 47:03 So do you think that he is going to get back into church life now? 47:09 I heard that he's in Oklahoma City or somewhere and he's working with a church, but he's no 47:14 longer in a position to manage people or get up and give sermons. 47:21 Because the thing is, I heard, because I don't know if it's really him, but he recharting 47:28 me from the fake Instagram. 47:30 So asking if there's photos giving somewhere or whatever, and that was a month before 47:34 the documentary comes out, so I don't know if it's really him. 47:37 I can be anyone. 47:38 I heard that he did try to like something with HR 47:41 He needed to make sure that he can get the job of this church 47:44 And then when the documentary came out and I asked people around they said yeah 47:48 There's rumors that he's going to work for some church. Yeah, and that's it was a confirmation of that 47:52 Okay, maybe it's really him because what will he ask me so many things? Yeah 47:57 So do you think that he is really sorry and that he's back with Laura and everything is good? 48:01 Or do you think that if you reached out to him, he would you know contact you and he did contact me in the past 48:07 two years. He contacted me from a fake phone, pretending to be a reporter, and told me that 48:13 he loved me then, he loved me now, he loved me forever. He thinks what I did is can be 48:18 undone. I did this for social media and be famous. And it was funny. I said, wow, you 48:23 have the audacity to message me and still not say sorry and want to blame me for everything. 48:27 I said, this is so typical. Wait, but how could he blame you? You weren't the 48:30 one that leaked it. They found it in his iCloud. Because you did interviews. 48:34 Because I wanted to be famous because I didn't lose anything like I didn't lose my job 48:39 I didn't like have my family didn't want to talk to me for months 48:41 But mom disowned me like that's not nothing happened to me because that I'm saying it's always like me me 48:47 It's always about him. Yeah, what's affects him and what how it makes him look like that's why I don't think he's genuine 48:52 Right. I think a lot of people, you know, don't understand the difference between women who want their 15 minutes of fame and go 48:59 To the media because they want to be famous and they're gonna like get deals 49:03 you know out of this and people that go to the media because they want their 49:07 story to be told because they're being seen in such a light and it's difficult 49:11 because you're like wait a minute that's not what happened and let me explain to 49:15 you who I am because I'm much bigger than this and that you have to know 49:18 that there's something else that went on it's not you know about oh I'm 49:22 waiting to get on you know celebrity big brother or something. I tell you 49:26 because people have seen me later on doing the X in the beach but the 49:29 whole the only reason I would decided to go to the media even though he 49:32 didn't say who I was when he posted that post and said he was unfaithful, is because 49:36 the last time we spoke on the phone, because he did spoke to multiple while he was 49:39 staying at Justin Bieber's, I will go up down the stairs and I can hear him and 49:42 the stairs talking to him while his wife in the other room like he did care to 49:46 stay in touch with me till the last days before they take his phone from 49:49 him. So while we will say he didn't care for me, he did care for me. He 49:53 wouldn't be on the phone constantly like talking to him, making sure I'm 49:56 okay so he can move on with his life. So I don't care what people say, I 49:59 know my story. But what intrigued me the most and because of my personal experience in life, 50:03 people don't know me like that. I don't have to share it. He said something after talking for 50:08 an hour saying he was in Nashville, did the therapy shock and he wanted me to, he should, 50:12 I should go there and all that good stuff. And then he said he was unfaithful before, 50:15 but he never loved anyone. He did say that to me. But the last of the last, what he said was, 50:21 don't worry about it. Your name is, is being buried. Nobody will like know who you 50:26 like, don't worry, I buried your name, something in that in that form. 50:30 Yeah. 50:30 And when I got off the phone and I literally said to myself, I said, oh my God, like, I 50:34 came from very repressed like culture, like I'm Muslim, I cannot be the way I am. 50:39 Like I owe my life. 50:39 I had to like, like fight with men and want to express myself. 50:43 And I'm not going to let any man bury me. 50:45 Right. 50:46 So this is what motivated me to want to talk to the media because I'm not 50:50 going to let anybody bury me. 50:51 And I think it stemmed from that like to be able to speak up and to be myself and not feel like it's like 50:58 Okay, there's another story and I can just move on my life. Mm-hmm. Yeah, this is why I did what I did 51:03 Incidentally you brought up that you were on Good Morning America and some of their shows right Amy Robach 51:09 Interviewed you right. She has now been fired for her infidelity. Oh shit. Did you not know that? 51:15 I didn't know that she was having an affair with her co-anchor 51:19 And they were both married and they have both been fired 51:24 This is so ironic, but yeah from their job and this happened a couple months ago. You didn't know that I really do 51:30 I try not to because I know I didn't look I didn't read about it 51:33 So and then the story that you know that normally they're you know hosting a show and 51:39 Reading stories the story became them and this was from page news for months. That's crazy 51:45 Um, so, and one of them, I think is now getting a divorce and the other one, I don't know that 51:49 the divorce is final, but they stayed together. 51:51 And stop. 51:52 I didn't want to look at it. 51:53 I'm going to look it up later. 51:54 I thought it was interesting because I know that she asked you kind of in a condescending 51:58 way. 51:59 Did you know he was married? 52:01 Did he tell you he was married and why did you continue your behavior after finding 52:06 out he was married? 52:07 So, I thought that that was a very interesting interview for her to give when, at the time 52:15 that she's interviewing you, she was having an affair or about to start a one. 52:20 I'm going to have to look at the timeline, but, you know, that's really incredible. 52:23 I just don't like the fact that, you know, when I did this interview, they really wanted 52:27 me to say sorry to his wife, and they did, there was an hour of an interview and they 52:31 just... 52:32 That was their goal. 52:33 Yeah, it was five minutes. 52:34 That sound bite, yeah. 52:35 And I'm kind of on the documentary. 52:37 I said, actually, I don't think I need to say sorry because he needs to say sorry to her. 52:41 Yeah. 52:41 Because, you know, I feel like at the end of the day, I kept telling him, go back to your family. 52:45 You have a family. 52:46 That's what I said. 52:47 And I can, and that's crazy. 52:48 But I feel I'm so close to be like, let me just post those freaking messages 52:53 because I'm tired of people like, but I told myself, no, I want to keep, 52:56 I still want to respect him and not do that because I didn't share any screenshots, 53:01 any videos that he sends me anything because I wanted to still respect his 53:05 family but then to think that I'm the villain yeah is really upsetting and it 53:09 just funny that uh that I got interviewed and then the questions like 53:13 that she asked is just kind of like semi-question to herself you know yeah 53:17 exactly but also with that edge of being a little bit condescending and 53:21 wanting to get something out of you so it's he filled the gap yeah yeah and I 53:26 just wanted to go back because I talked about how I had met Carl before I 53:29 owned a store at the time, a children's store and somebody had donated 50 backpacks to the store 53:36 and somehow somebody mentioned, oh, you know, you should donate them to a church and you should 53:40 donate them to Hillsong. Right. And I had never heard of it. So I knew somebody that knew somebody 53:46 that was a junior pastor and they said, oh, you'd have to meet Carl and his wife and you 53:52 can donate it to them. So they set it up that I brought a friend of mine and her husband and 53:58 And we went around and we saw that there was a line around the block, I guess this was 54:03 on 34th Street. 54:05 And I got a text saying, come to our VIP door in the back. 54:09 And I felt like this looked like a nightclub that was run like a church. 54:12 Even to tell you go to the VIP, it just already tells like, this is not a normal church. 54:16 Yeah. 54:16 Yeah. 54:17 It was crazy. 54:17 I'd never seen anything like that. 54:20 So we go to the back door and it like bangs open, like you're on Broadway kind 54:24 of. 54:24 You know what I mean? 54:25 Like somebody famous comes out. 54:26 And first of all, the first thing I noticed was how good looking everybody was and I mentioned it to the couple 54:33 I was with I said, what is going on in here? This seems to be a stage 54:36 Yeah, it's like stage everyone is so hip and cool 54:40 That's all the guys we saw on the back staircase that worked there that we were being introduced to really quick 54:45 I'll had skinny jeans black jeans on skinny tight jeans boots 54:49 Leather jackets, they were all over six feet tall and they literally all look like Calvin Klein models 54:54 or whatever. 54:55 Oh God, seriously, wow. 54:55 And you're just like, what is happening here? 54:58 Anyways, they put us in like the second row and the band started and I look around me 55:04 on either side and it's even better looking people than I saw when I walked in. 55:08 I'm like, who are all these people? 55:10 I don't get it. 55:10 Are they doing this for us to get us to donate the backpack because we're going to do it 55:14 anyway. 55:15 I just thought it was odd. 55:16 So then the band starts and the lights go down and it's dark and it's lit so 55:21 perfect and everyone knows every word to the song and the songs are like you're in a rock concert. 55:26 Wow. And my friend's husband, who works on Wall Street, takes out his phone. I'm like, 55:31 Raji, put that down. And he was like, no, no, no, I'm seeing how much this place is making. 55:35 So for the next 45 minutes, he's like, thinking of all the things that they're spending money on, 55:40 but all the ways that they're making money, how many times they ask for donations or whatever. 55:44 And he's whispering to us, oh my God, this is such a money maker. This is incredible. 55:48 And we're looking around people are singing and they all have their hands stretched out 55:52 And they're all singing and it's glory to God and Jesus in Jesus's name 55:56 And I'm looking at my friend Diana. I'm like, this is really insane. Like these people are nuts 56:01 I will tell you at the end of that hour Diana and I had our hands 56:09 You know and Raji who is you know from Lebanon, you know is not somebody who's church all the time 56:15 He's like this is amazing, but this is a cult. There's something wrong. Yeah, it is big. I mean listen 56:19 I I I been in churches, you know, I was married before my ex-husband a family stick me to church 56:24 And I have the but I have two Bibles at home 56:25 And you know and I used to read it and used to send me verses and like like I loved 56:30 I love people that in the in this in this in the spiritual place 56:33 You know like that's beautiful thing 56:34 But when he gets to a point where like like I even in documentary 56:38 So that if you donate money to Hillsong you you get to meet you get to have coffee with Brian Houston 56:43 and like what is that? Like you get bullet points. Like you know you kind of like it just was bizarre to 56:49 me that they used using this to like really wanted to make money and get and grow with the money, 56:55 you know. But now like it wasn't something that was helpful for somebody else. Like where is the 56:59 money? Where is the money goes? Like did you try to build homes, schools, give it to poor 57:05 people? Like where did the money go? That's a good question because what happened after is they 57:09 led us up to the green room and we saw a bunch of celebrities sitting there and Carl's there 57:16 and Laura's there and they come up to us and I explain that I had these 50 backpacks not 57:21 with me but I want to donate them and he was like oh my god thank you so much that's amazing 57:25 it's amazing to meet you and all this bullshit and Laura was quiet but she was very plain 57:34 but pretty girl. And, you know, so just, you know, impressive also because she stood out in the 57:40 room too. But I was like, okay, so I'll be in touch and I'll get you the backpacks. And I felt 57:45 really good about it. I'm like, I'm donating something. This makes me feel good. Yeah, 57:49 that you they allow you because I heard getting to the groom green room. It was such a hassle. 57:53 Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was. So but listen to this, go for it. To this day, they never took 57:57 the backpacks. I thought that was crazy. So we had a really hard time. They didn't send 58:02 They never sent anybody, never followed up on any calls. 58:04 They just want money. 58:05 They just want money. 58:06 They didn't want the donations. 58:07 And they kept talking about how they had all these kids 58:09 in different countries that needed stuff. 58:12 And I thought it was really, it was a red flag 58:15 that they never followed up on that. 58:17 And that didn't seem important to them. 58:19 And so I never went back, but when I left 58:24 I had that high of like, this is amazing. 58:26 I wanna be part of this and help out by donating. 58:29 And then it felt, it went down and down though 58:31 because I thought something was wrong by the fact that they didn't want what I 58:34 had to offer. Yeah. So, um, that was you were smart. So you already, you know, 58:39 catch some other people that come because, you know, he kept saying in the 58:43 documentary, we want to save people, people that have lost and I was, I was 58:47 like, I was giggling. I said to myself, you're such a lost person yourself. 58:51 Like the lost will find a lost because it's too hard for you to find 58:55 yourself. So it's easy to find other people. Yeah. Healthy people aren't 58:58 looking for salvation. 59:01 It's just people that are really looking for something. 59:03 And listen, that's a universal theme. 59:05 We're all looking for something, right? 59:06 Yeah. 59:07 You have to be careful with where you get your information, 59:10 where you get your love, where you get your fulfillment 59:14 to make sure it's real for everyone. 59:16 Yeah, it's true. 59:18 So my last, you know, how I want to end this is, 59:20 what do you think is the most misunderstood thing 59:22 about you or your scenario that you kind of want to, 59:26 You know make note that you want to get clear the air about that I'm not 59:32 I'm not a bad person. I didn't do this from an evil place. I've did this to redeem myself from what happened to 59:41 Set the tone I guess from women, you know 59:43 Like if you feel like you're in a place where like you fell into it and happened to be involved 59:48 Then you know that it wasn't right for you, but then you want to 59:51 Do good after what happened and you go about it in a certain way 59:55 You can there's no there's no room to be judged like like I want to feel that what I have done is really come from a place 60:01 Of helping whoever is going through a rough time or doesn't be like nobody hears them 60:08 It doesn't feel like they have support because I know how hard it is to want to speak up and feel ashamed 60:12 I don't feel ashamed of what happened. I regret it. Yes 60:16 I don't feel ashamed and I'm sure you understand my point of view. It's not like there's no shame 60:20 I feel like I'm I learned so much from it and now I feel like people come to me 60:24 Yeah, and it's funny for two years 60:25 I had so many people reach out to me and I did mention that to you before 60:29 Men and women and and they were like, please give me answers did cars do drugs? 60:33 Did you smoke marijuana? I want to know I used to go to church and give my money and we're talking about guys 60:39 I works in Wall Street like you know with money like I felt bad. I couldn't answer everyone so I 60:45 Feel like today after two years 60:47 I want to be able to, yeah, to have a voice for whoever want to talk and not be scared because it's still necessary. 60:54 Because as you said, when you come from a place of that church in any like environment, like the same style of environment, 61:01 you just really feel trapped and you don't have the voice. So I feel like maybe this is how I want people to remember me and know me as. 61:09 Yeah. And I think in speaking to you for the last hour, you know, I think it'll come across and people will hear who you are as a person. 61:16 and I think it's okay to judge you as a person based on what they hear from your 61:21 mouth but not from how the media writes you up or how you've been portrayed so 61:25 because they used a lot of provocative photos of me and so I'm kind of like I'm 61:29 not like living your life in a bathing suit or something literally and I was 61:32 kind of like you know I'm an artist you know I'm a jewelry designer and like 61:35 I'm a creative person I really this is not only me right and it sucks because 61:39 like you can be so many things right and you can be sexual and beautiful 61:43 And that doesn't mean that you are this like threat to every other woman out there, you know 61:49 So I do think that is an important lesson exactly so people don't think that we're like just looking for married man 61:55 You know out there. It's not it's not the point 61:57 So I just I don't wish I don't wish for anybody to go through betrayal because I was cheated on you know 62:02 in my recent legal relationship and 62:04 And my ex is a dating his girl. He cheated on me with so I mean I go through it and it's fine 62:10 I'm just like this is part of life and I'm not gonna sit and say I'm great and everything's beautiful nothing bad happened to me 62:16 Yes, right, but um, I mean 62:19 I just want to say that I feel for what happened to their family and I feel what happened to somebody who got abused 62:24 I'm a person. I have feelings like I care 62:26 You know, I don't want it to feel like I did this because I'm trying to get famous if I want to be famous 62:30 I would have done more, you know, and I didn't so 62:34 Just keep it like that. Right. Okay. Well, I appreciate you 62:36 I think your whole story is very interesting and you are interesting, so I wish you the best. 62:41 Oh, incidentally, what are you up to next? Like, what are you working on? What are you doing? 62:45 If people want to reach out to you, how can they find you? 62:47 Well, I'm on Instagram. Like, right now, I'm just working on my business. You know, I just, 62:51 you know, work more about my brand. There's nothing really like... 62:54 You're still a jewelry designer. 62:55 Yeah, I still, I mean, I'm a jewelry designer. Yeah. 62:58 Okay. And what's the name of your company? 62:59 It's called Wahidun, which means one in Arabic. 63:03 Oh, beautiful. 63:04 Yeah, thank you. 63:04 Wow, I love that. 63:05 Okay, what kind of jewelry it's uh, it's it there's like a part of the collection inspired by me being Egyptian 63:12 It's a lot of gold pieces with diamonds and gemstones and then other collection inspired by exotic bugs 63:18 Oh, it's kind of the pretty you know. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Okay. Can people find you on your Instagram? 63:23 Yes, I want to reach out. Yes, and you read your messages. Yes, and I do get like on my Instagram my business account 63:28 I'm in my website. You can actually contact me there. You can come to my showroom. I have a showroom in Brooklyn 63:33 You can come see my stuff, you know. 63:34 Awesome, thank you so much. 63:36 Okay, the second two parts of the documentary 63:38 will be out this week. 63:41 And so, you know, we'll see what happens in those, 63:43 but people should watch it. 63:45 I do think it's interesting. 63:46 If you're into cults, if you're into religion, 63:49 if you're into scandals, 63:51 sort of like a true crime mix of everything. 63:54 I just, I really felt, for the first episode, 63:56 I'm not gonna lie, I did cry a little bit 63:58 because when I heard the volunteers 64:00 And people that gave their life to the church and the way they're like, you know 64:04 People didn't have money to to pay their bills and like they they traveled and they were part of the 64:09 Ministry like they were doing the music and it was just very heartbreaking to see like how much time they gave yeah 64:15 And then this all like just falling apart and then like not no recognition no like love and thank you 64:21 It just it didn't and then you see all the money flowing and it just really hard 64:24 This is what really really made me sad. Yeah, the other part with crawling is why I didn't care about it 64:28 But like, and you know, but I was really sad for the people. 64:31 Yeah, mostly because I know I'm a foreigner. 64:33 I came here when I was 23, I build my life by myself. 64:36 And I know how hard it is to, to, to be here. 64:39 New York is not a cheap place. 64:40 Yeah. They say it in Nakomachi, too. 64:42 It's not, it's not easy to live here. 64:44 Yeah. And to take from you, from the little people, it's just devastating. 64:48 Right. That's one of the things that I was really like hard, hard by. 64:51 Yeah. Okay. 64:52 So you and I will talk after the second two episodes. 64:54 And we'll see how we think. 64:56 We gotta go. 64:57 Okay, cool. 64:57 Okay. Thank you so much. 64:58 My pleasure. Thank you. 65:02 If you've enjoyed today's episode, don't let it end here. Our Patreon community has become one of 65:07 my favorite parts of misunderstood. It's where I can become more personal, answer your questions, 65:13 share what's really happening behind the scenes, and continue conversations that simply don't fit 65:17 into the public podcast. Whether you want bonus episodes exclusive behind the scenes access, 65:22 my Palm Beach Life series, monthly giveaways, or even a one-on-one conversation with me, 65:27 there's a membership tier that's perfect for you. 65:30 I truly love to welcome you into our insider club. 65:34 Just visit patreon.com slash misunderstood 65:36 with Rachel Yucatel or click the link in the show notes.
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